INSIGHTFUL QUESTION

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When I look at that picture the only thing that keeps coming back to my mind is Demaryius Thomas running routes and Alfonso Dennard 3 or 4 steps behind him the entire way on every one of them.  Easy pickins for Manning.  Damn it.

guppy wrote:

LRJets wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


When I look at that picture the only thing that keeps coming back to my mind is Demaryius Thomas running routes and Alfonso Dennard 3 or 4 steps behind him the entire way on every one of them.  Easy pickins for Manning.  Damn it.
Your take on the Super Bowl  is quite different from mine as it should be.  NE was in the mix as recently as literally days ago.  I like John Fox,came from the Parcells tree unaffected.  I liked Pete Carroll and thought he caught a bad break in his short tenures with NE and the Jets.  I didn't like his make over to brashness at USC and the question marks above his head regarding day-to-day business there.  I wasn't crazy how he handled his team's "victory" over Green Bay during the referee's strike.  Never saw an ending like that in an NFL in my life untilironically this year when Gronk (IMO) was prevented to move in the end zone to NE's detriment.  (See, I can call 'em fair).  Then there's Sherman.  Ergo, Go Denver!

LRJets wrote:

guppy wrote:

LRJets wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


When I look at that picture the only thing that keeps coming back to my mind is Demaryius Thomas running routes and Alfonso Dennard 3 or 4 steps behind him the entire way on every one of them.  Easy pickins for Manning.  Damn it.
Your take on the Super Bowl  is quite different from mine as it should be.  NE was in the mix as recently as literally days ago.  I like John Fox,came from the Parcells tree unaffected.  I liked Pete Carroll and thought he caught a bad break in his short tenures with NE and the Jets.  I didn't like his make over to brashness at USC and the question marks above his head regarding day-to-day business there.  I wasn't crazy how he handled his team's "victory" over Green Bay during the referee's strike.  Never saw an ending like that in an NFL in my life untilironically this year when Gronk (IMO) was prevented to move in the end zone to NE's detriment.  (See, I can call 'em fair).  Then there's Sherman.  Ergo, Go Denver!

I don't have a strong feeling either way.  I should be for the AFC team, but in this case, I don't know.  Not sure how to feel about Welker at this point.  He did a lot for NE.  Would I like to see him get a ring?  Only if he deserves it I guess.  Lets see how he plays.  I've got to give it to Pete Carroll for what he's been able to accomplish.  On the other hand, I didn't use to like Fox, but he's kind of won me over more recently.  Seems to be a decent guy.    I don't hate Manning, not really.  But he was the No. 1 pick.  He's always been celebrated right from the beginning of his career.  He's always supposed to have been the best, and he's pretty much The Man on his team right from the get go, and never had to beat anyone out.  I just prefer the story of a guy who had to overcome, like a someone no one believed in, skinny, not particularly accurate, drafted 199th, with 6 guys who play the same position drafted ahead of him, a guy who nothing was given to him, but the only way he succeeded was to work hard, be the first one at practice and the last one to leave, compete for his job, and win it.  A guy who made himself what he is, and yet remains humble.  The story of an unheralded guy rising to the top by the force of his own sheer will, determination and hard work is a story that Americans usually love.  But that guy is not playing in this one.  Sadly.  

I'll probably just sit back and watch the game, and whoever wins, good for them.

George1963 wrote:

If not for Mo Lewis Brady, and most likely Belichick, would probably have been gone from NE within a couple of years and gone on to completely unremarkable careers.


Just because both of them owe some of their success to being with the other (its always a debate how Brady would do without Belichick, and vise versa, but the fact is, they both feed off each other, and that is something to compliment each of them on, not something to criticize), does not necessarily mean that each of them would not have still been successful somewhere else without the other.  The word I most disagree with in your statement is "probably".  You have no clue - none -  as to what their careers would "probably" have been.  Seriously.  The way you talk about this stuff, with such confidence, about things that involve total speculation, and that no human being can really know about, never mind with certainty, but not even with "probability", boggles the mind. 

How about this:  If Bart Starr, a 17th round draft pick, a nobody, a guy who didn't really get playing time his first three years with the Packers, wasn't paired with Vince Lombardi, he "probably" would have gone on to an unremarkable career.  But he had the "luck" of learning under Lombardi, so he eventually became a champion, and an NFL MVP, a Superbowl MVP, and a three time passing champion, and a Hall of Famer.  But it was all Lombardi.  Starr himself gets no credit.  On the other hand, Lombardi owes his success as a coach to Starr.  He was just an average coach until Starr, with his poise as a leader on the field leading Green Bay to a couple of Superbowl titles, came along.  I know that Lombardi "probably" would have had a "completely unremarkable career" as a head coach without the "luck" of having Bart Starr as his QB.  How do you like my statements, and the "probability" of their accuracy?  Well, they are no different than yours.

Lets see.  Your hypothesis:    "If not for Mo Lewis, Brady and Belichick would have been gone from NE in a couple of years, and both of them would have gone on to "completely unremarkable" careers"????  Whew.  Are you sure you have not been sneaking into the liquor cabinet today?   In other words, according to you, the two of them being together means soooooooo much to each of them individually that without teaming up with each other, they both would have gone on to "completely unremarkable" careers???  But put them together, and POOF, MAGIC - they each benefited sooooooo much from the other that they BOTH became First Ballot Hall of Famers.  Wow.  What a difference getting together makes!   Amazing.  And I can certainly agree with you that there is an ocean of difference in the NFL between having a "completely unremarkable career" on the one hand, and being a First Ballot Hall of Famer, on the other.  And I am sure you will agree with me that both of them will be wearing the Yellow Jackets in Canton, Ohio, on the first ballot.  There is no "probability" about that.  That is a "certainty".  So again, according to you, it makes that much of a huge difference to each of them that the stars aligned to put their otherwise pre-destined "completely unremarkable careers" together, and "luck" put on a different track, a track that eventually will take them both to Canton.   OKaaaaaaay.  Got it.  

And them being together and achieving the success they have is merely like everything in life --- there's an element of luck involved.  And that "luck"  is nothing more than Mo Lewis knocking out Drew Bledsoe and forcing Belichick's hand to give Brady a shot.  Because you know for sure that Brady would have never beaten out Bledsoe eventually, even though we saw what Bledsoe did in Buffalo and Dallas after he left NE, which is not much.  But, oh, Brady would never have beaten out a guy like that for the starting job.  Except of course, when Bledsoe healed from his injury and came back, Belichick decided the "quarterback controversy" in favor of leaving Brady in the starting role, even though it was kind of an unwritten rule that you don't lose your job due to injury.  And all the Bledsoe toadies, including Ron Borges, were furious at Belichick for favoring Brady over Bledsoe.  You probably forgot about all that though. 

You know, if we follow your (cough, cough) "logic", neither Brady, nor Belichick should get into the Hall of Fame. 

Mo Lewis should. 

 

George1963 wrote:And them being together and achieving the success they have is merely like everything in life --- there's an element of luck involved.  And that "luck"  is nothing more than Mo Lewis knocking out Drew Bledsoe and forcing Belichick's hand to give Brady a shot.  Because you know for sure that Brady would have never beaten out Bledsoe eventually, even though we saw what Bledsoe did in Buffalo and Dallas after he left NE, which is not much.  But, oh, Brady would never have beaten out a guy like that for the starting job.


No. He wouldn't have. Want to know why? BECAUSE HE WASN'T AS GOOD AS BLEDSOE!!
He could have torn it up in preseason for the rest of his contract with the Pats and he never would have beaten out Bledsoe for the position. He never would have had the chance to show what he might become.

Never. There are 109 million reasons I know this is an absolute fact.
Jesus Guppy use your friggin head. Bledsoe would have played and whatever happened with that would have happened. BB might have lasted four or five years and then gone on to be a coordinator. Assuming anybody would hire him. Brady would have played out his rookie deal and either stayed, signed to be somebody else's backup, or gone to a team with an open position. In other words a shitty team and we know how often that works out.

That's just common friggin sense. But you're right. I have no way of knowing it for an absolute fact so I shouldn't say it. Unlike you, who know with certainty that BB had enough power, what with all the success he'd had in his head coaching career up to that point, to bench the owners favorite player in the first year of the biggest contract in league history.
And you suggest I'm drinking?


BTW Drew Bledsoe was second in the league in passing and a Pro Bowler the year after he left the Patriots.


Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.   Bledsoe was my personal favorite player when he was playing.  But time after time, after time, after time, I watched him fail to convert third downs and tip his helmet up on his head, and walk off the field with a frustrated expression on his face.  Even for me -- a Bledsoe fanboy at the time -- I had enough.  I wanted someone else.   Give someone else on the roster a shot was my feeling.  When I saw Brady play a few games, my feeling was, "what quarterback controversy"?   I didn't care that half of New England was for Bledsoe, and half said it was Brady's job, I thought Belichick's decision was easy.  Brady keeps the job.  He won it.  Don't give me this, "you don't lose your job because of injury" B.S.  Belichick agreed with me.  Bledsoe was back.  But it was now Brady's job.  Bledsoe was crest fallen.  Too friggin bad, I thought.  Brady won the job.  I was converted. 

Mo Lewis just hastened that process, that's all.  It would have happened eventually.  You talk about "absolute facts".   That's one of them.  Quite simply:   BRADY WAS BETTER THAN BLEDSOE.  I (a one-time Bledsoe fanboy) say so.  BB said so.  History says so.  The cream rises to the top sooner or later.  Bledsoe could throw the ball through a brick wall.  But he couldn't convert on third downs.  It became more and more apparent as time went on.

As for you saying BB maybe or maybe not getting hired as a coordinator, what about all these trolls on multiple internet boards who try to support their "Brady is average" argument by touting the fact that Brady is merely fortunate that he plays for "one of the greatest coaches in history", and "look what the Pats did with Cassell at QB", and its the great NE "system" that makes Brady look better than his actually is, and "anybody can look good in that system"?  What do you say to all those trolls?  They heap the praise on the NE system and BB in an effort to discredit Brady.  What a joke. 

Actually, both sides are a joke.

Just like the internet trolls who try to tear down Brady as a mere "system" manager, your hypothesis that without the "lucky" opportunity that came along that brought about the change in QB, history would have been so incredibly different that we fans would barely know the names of Tom Brady and Bill Belichick, is so colored by bias and your insatiable desire to take credit away from Brady and/or BB because they are merely the fortunate beneficiaries of "luck" (a/k/a Mo Lewis)  that there is not even the pretense of objectivity.

George1963 wrote:
BTW Drew Bledsoe was second in the league in passing and a Pro Bowler the year after he left the Patriots.


LOL.  Ya, and the Bills went 8-8, were swept by the Patriots, and finished at the very bottom of the AFCE. 

And Buffalo released Bledsoe two years later to make room for J.P. Losman.  LOL 

Stats are for losers.  Brady was a WINNER.  That's why he was better than Bledsoe. 

Thanks for making my point.

George1963 wrote:Because you know for sure that Brady would have never beaten out Bledsoe eventually, even though we saw what Bledsoe did in Buffalo and Dallas after he left NE, which is not much.  But, oh, Brady would never have beaten out a guy like that for the starting job.


OK, when? How bad would things have had to be for BB to bench a healthy Bledsoe?
Tell me, and I'll give you that everything plays out exactly as it did from that point on and I'll tell you what it would have meant for all concerned.
If you do this, you'll be the first Pats fan who's ever given a concrete answer.
When would Belichick have put Brady in and what would the Pats record have been at the time?


I'll tell you the answer right after you tell me the year that had Mo Lewis not hit Bledsoe, and Brady not been given his shot at the job as a result, that (1) Belichick would have been gone from NE; and (2) Brady would have been gone from NE.   And in addition to telling me the years that those two things happen (because it was you that said they would), you need to describe for me in detail what you specifically mean by "completely unremarkable careers".  You need to tell me what Brady's post NE career would be like, and how long it would last.   And tell me what Belichick's post NE career would be like, if he even had one that is, because you inferred that he may not have even been hired as a coordinator.  You need to tell me these things first.  If you do, you will be the first Pats hater who's ever given a concrete answer -- you know, an actual answer containing facts that arguably backs up the typical tiresome, half-baked b.s. that comes from rival fans' lame attempts to try to discredit the Pats and/or their accomplishments. 

Because that's what I objected to.  Not that Mo Lewis changed the course of Patriots history, which he did.  But my ire was raised when you said that but for the Mo Lewis incident, you are confident that both Brady and Belichick would be out of NE within 4-5 years, and then gone on to "completely unremarkable careers".   In other words, you are saying a couple of things.  One, Belichick is really a mediocre coach at best, and if not for the "luck" of Brady taking over and making Bill look like a good coach, Bill would just be a footnote in NFL history.  Of course that is rubbish.  By the way, who drafted Brady anyways?  I know, it wasn't until 198 players were drafted ahead of him.  But still, there are 31 other GM's that didn't do it.  Second, you are saying that without Mo Lewis, Brady himself would have continued to ride the bench behind the great and successful Drew Bledsoe, so much so, to the point that he too would be out of NE within 4-5 years,  And he too would go on to make no significant contribution whatsoever to NFL history.  Again, you're confident in this hypothesis.  And again, it is rubbish. 

So I now come back to my main question. 

When both Brady and Belichick are in Canton up on the stage, wearing the yellow HOF jackets, and giving their speeches, do you think it is appropriate that each of them should say something along these line?  I guess you do.

"Thank you ladies and gentlemen.  I want to thank everybody who helped me along the way in my career that helped me get to this point.  But most of all I want to thank Mo Lewis from the NY Jets.  More than all those other people who helped and supported me, and more than all the years of hard work and study and long hours I put in myself because of my love of the game of football to make myself a better coach/quarterback, Mo Lewis is the singular, primary reason that I am standing up here on this stage before you now.  Thank you Mo.  If it wasn't for you, which caused me and my coach/qb to work together, I would have gone on to a 'completely unremarkable career', and nobody would have voted to admit me to this esteemed Hall of Fame.  Mo, I see you out there in the audience.  Come on up here please and take this yellow jacket from me.  You deserve it more than me."

George1963 wrote:

You're either missing my point or making it. I'm not sure. If not for Mo Lewis you never would have seen Brady play those few games. Ever. Flat wouldn't have happened. Ever.


He didn't compete for his job, and win it.  , not even later on in the year when Bledsoe was healthy. He got a chance because Bledsoe got hurt, and he kept the job because BB let him.
Again, as I said at the start, nothing against him but he competed for and won that job just about as much as Lyndon Johnson competed for and won the White House.


He "kept the job because BB let him"?  "Let him"?  Seriously?  To me, that means he "won" the job.  BB already knew what Bledsoe gave him.  And now knew, thanks to the circumstances of Brady getting a shot due to Bledsoe's injury, what Brady could give him.  BB now had a choice.  He had two candidates for the job.  He weighed the two options.  And he chose Brady.   As I said, you can characterize it anyway you want.  But to me, that's "winning the job".   The difference here which makes your Lyndon Johnson analogy flawed is, Bledsoe came back and was available to retake the job from his backup who filled in for him, and a choice had to be made.  JFK did not come back and present such a choice between him and his fill-in.

You're whole disagreement with the notion of whether Brady "won" his job or not, is really small potatoes.  What really brought this discussion down, is that you didn't stop there.  You had to go on and take a very thinly veiled shot at both of them by throwing in the extra "add-on" that had the Mo Lewis incident not happened.  both TB and BB would have been out of NE in 4-5 years and gone on to "completely unremarkable careers".  As I said, the way you throw something like that out there, with such confidence, as if its a certainty to happen, is mind boggling.  The focus of this discussion is not whether Brady won his job or not.  The focus is, you used the Mo Lewis incident, as a jumping off point to basically say that TB's and BB's success was nothing more than "luck", and had it not happened, they never would have been successful, and we all would have found out how mediocre they both really are.  It was a low, cheap shot. 

Then, to make it worse, you try to disguise the cheap shot by saying, oh, btw, "nothing against him/them".  Ya, right.  Sure.  Whatever you say.  "Nothing against them". 

George1963 wrote:

So tell me when Belichick would have made the switch.


Oh ya, Belichick is known for keeping guys in a position too long, and he's afraid to pull the trigger on a player popular with the fans.  I wonder what Lawyer Milloy or Wes Welker, or a bunch of others, would say about that? Bill is so afraid of making changes that he never would have benched a popular player like Bernie Kosar in favor of a guy like Vinnie Testaverde, would he?  No, didn't think so.

I can't tell you when he would have made the switch, just like you can't tell me that the point would not have been reached after one frustrating failure to convert on third down after another, that he would have tried something different.  


Speaking of "numbers sucking", and that BB's numbers without TB are "sub .500", I take it that you think being "sub .500" is an indicator of one's mediocrity?   So I guess that would now apply to Peyton Manning, and his sub .500 career record in the playoffs?   The same Peyton Manning that just set a record for the number of completions (34) in a SB game?  Ya, I agree with you, "numbers suck".  


This brings to mind something else.  As I recall, it was relentlessly pounded home to Pats fans a few years back that some numbers mean more than others.  For instance, the numbers 18-0 meant nothing when followed by the next numbers of 0-1, which then updated the 18-0 to 18-1.   So impressive at 18-0 might have been at the time, once 18-0 became 18-1, the "18" part of it was no longer impressive, but just a big joke.   Keeping that in mind, I think of the numbers 55 and 5, as in 55 TD passes, and 5 MVPs.  Just like 18-0, they are impressive too.  But then you throw in the number 73.5 (PM's QBR in the SB) and the numbers 55 and 5 become almost meaningless.  Just like 18-0.

George1963 wrote:


I need a laugh.

I'm glad to have helped.


Mo Lewis doesn't cave in Drew Bledsoes chest, Tom Brady doesn't wind up being Tom Brady and Bill Belichick stays Bill Belichick.
I'd bet money gun to their heads they'd tell you that.

Now I'm the one laughing.  Hard as matter of fact.




I don't give a crap what you think Guppy.

You don't like getting busted do you?

George1963 wrote:

So, for the third time, you tell me when BB would have made the move that you, without any evidence, consideration of BBs history, consideration of the situation at the time, or even any logic whatsoever, are completely confident he would have made.

The answer is:  

[drum roll]

--- Right after very the Jets game in which the Mo Lewis hit took place.  The Pats lost the game and the offense was only able to put up 3 points.  They had already lost to the Bungles the week before.  Bledsoe was not getting the job done.  If Bledsoe doesn't get hurt, he finishes the game, the Pats lose to the Jets 10-3 with Bledsoe being ineffective, BB doesn't wait.  He makes the switch for Brady the very next week.   

You know how I know?  

The same way that you profess to know everything you say you know. 

My hypothesis stands on exactly the same level, with the same foundation, and the same factual support, as everything you say.  Take that anyway you want.

How's that for specifics? 

George1963 wrote:

If it ever happens I'll let you know.


But that would require honesty on your part.  So I guess won't waste my time waiting.

George1963 wrote:So, for the third time, you tell me when BB would have made the move that you, without any evidence, consideration of BBs history, consideration of the situation at the time, or even any logic whatsoever, are completely confident he would have made.

The answer is:  

[drum roll]

--- Right after very the Jets game in which the Mo Lewis hit took place.  The Pats lost the game and the offense was only able to put up 3 points.  They had already lost to the Bungles the week before.  Bledsoe was not getting the job done.  If Bledsoe doesn't get hurt, he finishes the game, the Pats lose to the Jets 10-3 with Bledsoe being ineffective, BB doesn't wait.  He makes the switch for Brady the very next week.   

You know how I know?  

The same way that you profess to know everything you say you know. 

My hypothesis stands on exactly the same level, with the same foundation, and the same factual support, as everything you say.  Take that anyway you want.


Yea. That's right on the same level.


OK, so this latest little blood bath has run its course, and now is pretty much over. 

So now do you want to shake hands? 


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guppy wrote:BTW, I meant to pose the following inquiry to LR awhile back:


If one asks an "insightful question", is the question more insightful if its an "INSIGHTFUL QUESTION"?   
nah, it just looks good as a "New Topic Headline"