Peyton Manning now the all time leader...

by guppy Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:22 pm

....in PLAYOFF LOSSES for a starting QB. With the loss to the Ravens, he broke his tie with Brett Favre at 11. Peyton is now alone in first with 12 losses in the postseason. Favre second with 11. Marino third with 10.

by guppy Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:25 pm

guppy wrote:....in PLAYOFF LOSSES for a starting QB. With the loss to the Ravens, he broke his tie with Brett Favre at 11. Peyton is now alone in first with 12 losses in the postseason. Favre second with 11. Marino third with 10.

Correction. My information was in error. Peyton at 11 losses, not 12. My bad.

by LRJets Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:28 am

C'mon Gup, you know you have to be good enough to get into the playoffs that often to realize such a record.

It just happens. You don't think Peyton gets a case of the nerves (worse than others) before each playoff game he appeared in?

I don't look at Jim Kelly as a loser because he lost 4 Super Bowls. You see the arduous task in just getting there.

I can't understand why his playoff record is so dismal, but the bottom line is it took usually one INT by PM to have lost most of these games.

by guppy Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:41 am

LRJets wrote:C'mon Gup, you know you have to be good enough to get into the playoffs that often to realize such a record.

It just happens. You don't think Peyton gets a case of the nerves (worse than others) before each playoff game he appeared in?

I don't look at Jim Kelly as a loser because he lost 4 Super Bowls. You see the arduous task in just getting there.

I can't understand why his playoff record is so dismal, but the bottom line is it took usually one INT by PM to have lost most of these games.

I agree that it is hard to get to the playoffs in the first place. I agree that it is a team game. I agree that the QB gets too much of the credit for the win, and too much of the blame for the loss. All that being said, discussions and debates take place over who is better than who, and where does each guy rank when comparing one career against another, and in such discussions and debates, playoff win-loss records are a big part of who gets ranked above who.

by LRJets Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:10 am

Statistics can always be "massaged".

TB won three Lombardis. He lost twice.

PM won one Lombardi. He never lost.

So....of course winning three is better than one, yet Peyton's winning %age is 100% while TB's is 60%.

I'm being foolish to show the hidden factors involved while the record books show the black, not the gray (dropped pass, defensive lapse) things the QB is not responsible for.

I would have liked to see a Denver-NE AFCC game.

Both are first ballot HOFers and both are in the Top 10 all-time.

by guppy Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:50 am

LRJets wrote:Statistics can always be "massaged".

TB won three Lombardis. He lost twice.

PM won one Lombardi. He never lost.

So....of course winning three is better than one, yet Peyton's winning %age is 100% while TB's is 60%.

I'm being foolish to show the hidden factors involved while the record books show the black, not the gray (dropped pass, defensive lapse) things the QB is not responsible for.

I would have liked to see a Denver-NE AFCC game.

Both are first ballot HOFers and both are in the Top 10 all-time.

Peyton's winning %age is 50%, not 100%. He's 1-1 in SBs. Remember the Pick 6 by Tracy Porter that sealed the SB victory for the Saints over Peyton's Colts? So Brady has BOTH more wins, AND a higher winning %age - in SBs, in regular season, in post season, you name it.

I'm not by any stretch saying Peyton is anything other than a first ballot HOFer. But there is no good way to massage the stats of Peyton's 9-11 post season record (tied for MOST LOSSES all time) vs. Brady's 17-6 post season record (MOST WINS all time). Lets put it this way. Peyton is one of the greatest REGULAR SEASON QBs ever.

Let me make an analogy to golf. What does Tiger Woods care more about? Winning the most tournaments in a career, or beating out Jack Nicklaus for winning the most MAJORS in a career? He wants Jack's record of 18 Majors more than anything else. I'm not Rags. I respect Peyton a lot, both as player and a person. However, to repeat Bill Belichick's often used statement, "There is no other quarterback I would rather have than Tom Brady."

The more relevant discussion is not TB-PM, it is TB-Joe Montana.

by LRJets Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:09 pm

The more relevant discussion is not TB-PM, it is TB-Joe Montana.

Funny, just this morning on ESPN First Take, there was a debate on just that by Stephen A.Smith, Jaws, and Skip Bayless. Looking back, they all had different views yet valid points for their side.

Jaws thought TB is the best NFL QB now, while Stephen A. chose Rodgers. It was broought up that as great as TB is, Rodgers was more athletic in arm and movement. It was even brought up if Rodgers and TB reversed systems (teams), how would each fare? Stephen A. siad the same thing as you (championships).

All I could think of is how great the legacy of Dan Marino is and he is ringless.

Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

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by guppy Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:07 pm

[quote="LRJets"]The more relevant discussion is not TB-PM, it is TB-Joe Montana.

Funny, just this morning on ESPN First Take, there was a debate on just that by Stephen A.Smith, Jaws, and Skip Bayless. Looking back, they all had different views yet valid points for their side.

Jaws thought TB is the best NFL QB now, while Stephen A. chose Rodgers. It was broought up that as great as TB is, Rodgers was more athletic in arm and movement. It was even brought up if Rodgers and TB reversed systems (teams), how would each fare? Stephen A. siad the same thing as you (championships).

All I could think of is how great the legacy of Dan Marino is and he is ringless.

Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

True. Also, I would consider Jim Kelly elite. He killed teams on a pretty regular basis, just happened to lose the Big Game 4 times, while Joe Cool won it 4 times. Basically, if you own one of those yellow (HOF) jackets, you are, by definition, elite.

Maryanne.

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by LRJets Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:03 am

Oscar

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by George1963 Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:18 am

Peyton's winning %age is 50%, not 100%.
He's 1-1 in SBs. Remember the Pick 6 by Tracy Porter that sealed the SB
victory for the Saints over Peyton's Colts? So Brady has BOTH more
wins, AND a higher winning %age - in SBs, in regular season, in post
season, you name it.

I'm
not by any stretch saying Peyton is anything other than a first ballot
HOFer. But there is no good way to massage the stats of Peyton's 9-11
post season record (tied for MOST LOSSES all time) vs. Brady's 17-6 post
season record (MOST WINS all time). Lets put it this way.

There's not?
How about this;
Sunday was the sixth time in Mannings 11 playoff losses that he put his team in a position to win or go to overtime then stood on the sideline and watched his defense or kicker blow it for him.
Has that ever happened to Brady?
They both have 7 such drives in the playoffs, the difference is 7 times for Brady the kick was made and/or the defense held.
Once for Manning. Ironically that was against the Pats in '06.
Manning has never played as poorly in any of his playoff losses* as Brady played in at least three of his wins.
One guy's snakebit and the other seems to have the breaks always go his way.
I think you or Lloyd had made a baseball analogy somewhere in this thread, and if you didn't I will now.
Suppose you had two pitchers, one had a 17-6 record the other was 9-11.
If they both had the same ERA would you think twice about automatically saying the guy with the most wins was a better pitcher?
Manning and Brady have about the same playoff passer rating.
I thought things might be different for him this year. The Broncos aren't the best team he's ever had around him, but they're the most balanced.
Then the #2 defense in the league, and a HOF cornerback play like they just took up pass coverage on thursday.
Snakebit.
But you guy's are both right, the 9-11 record is what people will look at.
And Gup, I don't bring up Brady to put him down in anyway, just as comparison.
Like, Manning throws a stupid int and it leads to the winning score.
Brady does the same and Troy Brown strips the ball.

* You could say both games against the Pats were worse than any TB win, but that was when the NFL was still giving the officials a "let the boys play" edict as to PI and holding in the playoffs, and the Pats were taking full advantage of it, so I'll give PM somewhat of a pass on those games. Still, in the second one, I don't to this day understand why he didn't just stay the hell away from Ty Law.
Ego, maybe.

by George1963 Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:23 am

Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

You can have 'em both.
I might have to fight Jed and Jethro to get there, but I'm going with sweet, sweet Ellie Mae.

by George1963 Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:42 am

Sunday was the sixth time in Mannings 11 playoff losses that he put his team in a position to win or go to overtime then stood on the sideline and watched his defense or kicker blow it for him.
Has that ever happened to Brady?

To answer my own question, yes it has. He scored late in the '07 Super Bowl and the defense didn't hold.
So, once.
Sorry.

by LRJets Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:34 pm

Peyton is one of the greatest REGULAR SEASON QBs ever.

Translation: Brady defenders or Peyton critics way of saying Manning chokes.

He is too good and savvy to choke as often as claimed. Too many variables.

by LRJets Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:34 pm

Peyton is one of the greatest REGULAR SEASON QBs ever.

Translation: Brady defenders or Peyton critics way of saying Manning chokes.

He is too good and savvy to choke as often as claimed. Too many variables.

by guppy Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:17 pm

George1963 wrote:Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

You can have 'em both.
I might have to fight Jed and Jethro to get there, but I'm going with sweet, sweet Ellie Mae.

George, I would have guessed that your top choice would be either Laverne or Shirley.

by Toddseahawks Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:56 pm

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

You can have 'em both.
I might have to fight Jed and Jethro to get there, but I'm going with sweet, sweet Ellie Mae.

George, I would have guessed that your top choice would be either Laverne or Shirley.

LOL

by guppy Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:33 pm

George1963 wrote:Sunday was the sixth time in Mannings 11 playoff losses that he put his team in a position to win or go to overtime then stood on the sideline and watched his defense or kicker blow it for him.
Has that ever happened to Brady?

To answer my own question, yes it has. He scored late in the '07 Super Bowl and the defense didn't hold.
So, once.
Sorry.

Ya, the defense didn't hold in '08. But unfortunately, the Gorilla Glue on Tyree's helmut did.

Likewise last year the defense failed to stop the Eli to Maningham bomb down the sideline late, the critical play in the Giants winning drive. So I count that one too. Otherwise, its 5-0 in superbowls for our hero.

So they both have been victimized by their defenses' failings. But from what I have been reading and hearing, Peyton is taking some tough shots nationally over this latest Ravens debacle and his overtime pic. But back to my original point. By all measurements, PM and TB have been historically very close in most categories......except post season win percentage. There, they are truly miles apart. In 23 games TB is .739, whereas in 20 games PM is .450. That disparity is large enough that it is striking, and on that basis, Brady gets the nod as #1, while Peyton has to settle for being #1a on the Mount Rushmore of QBs. Just my bias, homer, yahoo opinion. lol

by George1963 Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:39 am

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

You can have 'em both.
I might have to fight Jed and Jethro to get there, but I'm going with sweet, sweet Ellie Mae.

George, I would have guessed that your top choice would be either Laverne or Shirley.

Nah. They're Packers fans.

by guppy Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:21 am

George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

You can have 'em both.
I might have to fight Jed and Jethro to get there, but I'm going with sweet, sweet Ellie Mae.

George, I would have guessed that your top choice would be either Laverne or Shirley.

Nah. They're Packers fans.

You are the master of trivia. I'm impressed.

by George1963 Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:07 pm

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Seemed like an old bar room debate never settled....Mays or Mantle? Or Mantle-Williams?

Or Maryanne-Ginger?

You can have 'em both.
I might have to fight Jed and Jethro to get there, but I'm going with sweet, sweet Ellie Mae.

George, I would have guessed that your top choice would be either Laverne or Shirley.

Nah. They're Packers fans.

You are the master of trivia. I'm impressed.

From Wisconsin. Stands to reason. Anyway, from that whole Happy Days/L&S/Joanie loves Chachi franchise the only choice would have been Richies gf Gloria/Fonzies gf Ashley. Both played by Linda Purl.
Mmmmm.
Yea. I know a little trivia.

by George1963 Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:53 pm

Ya, the defense didn't hold in '08. But unfortunately, the Gorilla Glue on Tyree's helmut did.

Likewise last year the defense failed to stop the Eli to Maningham bomb down the sideline late, the critical play in the Giants winning drive. So I count that one too. Otherwise, its 5-0 in superbowls for our hero.

When the Patriots took the lead there were 19 min left in the game. Their D held the Giants to a TD and FGs twice. The offense went 3 and out, int, 10 play drive to nowhere and failed last drive.
TB went 7/15 for 75 yds and an int after the Hernandez TD
When it takes almost a third of the game and you don't do a thing to help yourself it doesn't qualify as the D blowing the game for you.

by guppy Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:44 am

George1963 wrote:Ya, the defense didn't hold in '08. But unfortunately, the Gorilla Glue on Tyree's helmut did.

Likewise last year the defense failed to stop the Eli to Maningham bomb down the sideline late, the critical play in the Giants winning drive. So I count that one too. Otherwise, its 5-0 in superbowls for our hero.

When the Patriots took the lead there were 19 min left in the game. Their D held the Giants to a TD and FGs twice. The offense went 3 and out, int, 10 play drive to nowhere and failed last drive.
TB went 7/15 for 75 yds and an int after the Hernandez TD
When it takes almost a third of the game and you don't do a thing to help yourself it doesn't qualify as the D blowing the game for you.

Wait a sec. What was the time on the clock and the score (Pats still with the lead?) when Welker failed to make the catch that would have converted onn third down and kept the drive alive, which it is my memory would have allowed them to keep the ball and basically run out the clock and prevented the Giants from getting the ball back, and we have a different outcome?

And secondly, what was the time on the clock and the score when Eli connected with Mario Manningham deep down the left sideline that converted a crucial third and long and moved the Giants whatever number of yards down the field, that if that play does not connect, I think its safe to say the game has a different outcome? The announcers -- and the NY papers the next day -- were basically comparing the Manningham catch to the Tyree catch of '08, as it represented a similar crucial turning point. Like the Tyree catch in '08, the Manningham catch in '12 were both huge plays that each time the Pats D failed to prevent, and those plays directly contributed to the Giants winning each time. Without those plays, the Giants win neither superbowl. Because without those plays the Giants do not go on to get the go-ahead score late in either game. Tom Brady was not on the field for either of them.

If you have the lead (very) late in the game, and the other team gets the go-ahead score with somewhere around under 2 minutes left, basically on their last opportunity with the ball, then to me, that means your D didn't hold when it needed to hold in order to preserve your lead and win the game.

What was the time on the clock when the lead changed hands to the Giants at the end when the Pats actually let them walk in for the score so they (the Pats) would have more time to try to engineer a final winning when they get the ball back one final time? How much time was left at that point? I seem to remember there was so little time left that the Pats couldn't do very much except run a couple of plays to get to mid field, and then Brady had no other option but to thow up a Hail Mary in the final seconds from 60 yards out, (which came down in the end zone and which Hernandez got his hands on, but which Gronk couldn't snag the deflection before the ball hit the ground because he couldn't move very well on his injured ankle.) That Hail Mary almost worked. If it did, the Pats would have won the game on the last play as time expired. The point remains that had the Pats D previously held the Giants on their final drive, there would have been no desperation and no need for TB and the offense to try to go 80 yards with hardly any time left, and the only option left as the clock ticked down to zero was the low percentage, desperation Hail Mary. Bottom line, it was both the O (Welker drop/Brady not throwing a more catchable ball), and the D (not breaking up Manningham's catch) that failed in that one.

These games really do turn on one play here or there. That being true, that is an argument in Peyton Manning's favor that he has been victimized or is snakebit. However -- and I'm not being a wise ass when I say this -- when you're victimized by the failings of your D once, twice, or even three times, ya, I'll buy it that you're snakebit. But when, after 20 post-season games over a 15 year career, you are a pedestrian 9-11, that includes 8 one and dones, that's more of a trend. Sorry, it just is.

(Clearly, this year it was both. He was obviously victimized BIG TIME by his D in regulation. But that horrible, horrible lapse by his Defense allowing the Flacco bomb with 30 seconds left did not lose the game. It only tied the game for the Ravens. It forced an overtime. Sure, it was an overtime that should not have been. Sure, the Broncos were in "shock" as Fox and Elway said. But it was still either team's game to win. The great ones need to shine in that pressure spot and step up and win the damn game. Thats why they get paid $20 Million a year -- to come through in such a moment. To be the hero. To be Joe Montana. Moments like that are where legends come though, and where legacies are made. Unfortunately, PM shrunk in that moment. He threw that horrific pic, which was both a bad decision and a bad throw (rolling right, throwing across his body to the left). That bonehead move gave the Ravens a short field, and basically the game. Manning owns that. No doubt it stings - real bad. But, it was SELF-inflicted. And there are no excuses.)

by George1963 Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:41 pm

Blah blah blah.
Not discounting anything you've said, just doing this on my brothers I-pad and not sure how to quote stuff.
There wre 4 min left when Brady threw behind Welker. Not enough time to "Ice the game".
A score on that drive, or the two before it would have. But that didn't happen.
Last years SB is not at all like what I was talking about Gup.
Put it this way;
Manning put the most accurate kicker in NFL history in the position to win a playoff game or send it into overtime three times.
Vanderjacgt went 0 for 3.
Brady, meanwhile, had a wildly inconsistent kicker who BB had so little faith in he was actively trying to replace turn into "Automatic Adam".
Standing on the sideline and watching someone else decide your fate has never seemed to work out for Manning. Ever. Not once that I can think of.
I just think it's a shame that all anybody will look at when he's done is the number of playoff losses without looking deeper.
Like you felt the need for whatever reason that he had the most playoff losses, which you did correct, but failed to mention that he's top 10 in wins.
Brady's top 10 in losses in case you were wondering. Could get into the top 5 this weekend.
Typing with a stck sucks and I'm tired of it and I have several things I'd like to say but I'm so irritated with this thing I'll only say one;
Tom Brady walked onto the field last Sunday a better QB than Joe Montana and nothing that did or could have happened would have changed that.

by guppy Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:36 pm

George1963 wrote:Blah blah blah.
Not discounting anything you've said, just doing this on my brothers I-pad and not sure how to quote stuff.
There wre 4 min left when Brady threw behind Welker. Not enough time to "Ice the game".
A score on that drive, or the two before it would have. But that didn't happen.
Last years SB is not at all like what I was talking about Gup.
Put it this way;
Manning put the most accurate kicker in NFL history in the position to win a playoff game or send it into overtime three times.
Vanderjacgt went 0 for 3.
Brady, meanwhile, had a wildly inconsistent kicker who BB had so little faith in he was actively trying to replace turn into "Automatic Adam".
Standing on the sideline and watching someone else decide your fate has never seemed to work out for Manning. Ever. Not once that I can think of.
I just think it's a shame that all anybody will look at when he's done is the number of playoff losses without looking deeper.
Like you felt the need for whatever reason that he had the most playoff losses, which you did correct, but failed to mention that he's top 10 in wins.
Brady's top 10 in losses in case you were wondering. Could get into the top 5 this weekend.
Typing with a stck sucks and I'm tired of it and I have several things I'd like to say but I'm so irritated with this thing I'll only say one;
Tom Brady walked onto the field last Sunday a better QB than Joe Montana and nothing that did or could have happened would have changed that.

Its not "blah blah blah". Its legit commentary on a subject being being brought up on national shows, articles and blogs. I didn't start it. I've read and watched others comment on it on TV and elsewhere, and I'm just chiming in. I didn't start this thread just to pile on Manning when he's down. I told you, I respect the hell out of him. He's been unlucky, yes. But I also thought it was fair to point out that a lot of his "bad breaks" have been self-inflicted too. And also, that he's not the only QB to walk off the field with his team in the lead only to watch from the sideline while the other team retakes the lead leaving little or no opportunity to re-take it back. Happend to Brady too; not just in any playoff game, but in the biggest playoff game of them all - the superbowl. But hey, someone who knows a lot more about football than me once said, "You are what your records says you are."

Forget losses. OK, you want to talk wins? Yes, Manning is in top 10 in wins, true. He has the same number of wins as Kurt Warner, Donovan McNabb and Jim Kelly, and one less than Ben Roethlisberger. Does that mean he's in the same class as those guys? Not to me. I look "deeper" and see his domination in the regular season, and therefore put him above those guys. On the other hand, Brady alone has 17 wins, which he got in 23 tries. That gets him in a totally different class. Just does. Just like Jack Nicklaus' 18 majors gets him in his own class that does not even include Tiger, no matter how many other tournaments Jack failed to win. 18 Majors is what most defines Jack's legacy.

Finally, I don't quite get the last sentence of your post. Is there sarcasm there I'm missing? I'll say this about Brady vs Montana. Brady is not a better playoff QB than Montana -- yet. He has more playoff wins than Joe, thats true. But not until he ties him (and Bradshaw) with 4 superbowls wins each, will the question be definitively answered. However, the fact that the question is even being asked and debated about Brady vs. Montana while Brady is still playing, constitutes huge props in and of itself to Brady. That's the kind of comparison that should wait until Brady hangs them up and we see his full body of work. The fact that it is even being raised now when Brady still has a bunch of years left to put more pelts up on his wall speaks volumes.

I don't know if NE is going to win this weekend or not. But I'm enjoying being in the hunt nonetheless.

by LRJets Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:57 pm

I'll say this about Brady vs Montana. Brady is not a better playoff QB than Montana -- yet.

Gup...Maybe Brady isn't a better playoff QB than Montana, but he's not inferior. Just last year's SB proved that. Did he not play good enough to win? He sure did. I always get nervous when Brady gets the ball. For years. It's always, if not a TD, it could be a good gain. I've seen him do his stuff with countless different receivers over the years. A lot of different lineman.

Like PM, he is not arrogant, he's a hard worker, and both have tremendous passion. I'd be curious to see how BB would do without him and vice-versa. I think TB would fare better, and BB is an all-time great coach.

p.s. I get sick of their winning ways, but I only have respect for them.

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