Re: Tim Tebow to NE

by guppy Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:18 pm

LRJets wrote:
George1963 wrote:Oh George.

Oh Guppy.

Then you'll need to have a top five QB in place or be confident in his ability to find one because he has a track record of being mediocre head coach without a top notch QB.

Football's answer to Phil Jackson?

Michale Jordan
Scotty Pippin
Shaq
Kobe

Oh L.R.

Nice try. Unfortunately, epic failure of an attempt to support George's argument.

The most obvious counter argument:

Matt Cassel. "Top five QB"??

11-5. "Mediocre" head coaching job??

Need we say more?

Didn't think so.

Are we now seriously debating whether BB would be hired by another organization should his time in NE end? Seriously? If you guys are going to make the effort to tear down BB, you need to separate the issue of his personal likeability from the issue of his football coaching ability. You both get confused when you meld the two together.

by George1963 Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:55 pm

The most obvious counter argument:

Matt Cassel. "Top five QB"??

No.

11-5. "Mediocre" head coaching job??

When you have, based on the previous years records, the tenth easiest schedule in history, yea. When you have the talent that team had, yea. When exactly three of those wins came against teams with winning records, yea.

Are we now seriously debating whether BB would be hired by another organization should his time in NE end? Seriously? If you guys are going to make the effort to tear down BB, you need to separate the issue of his personal likeability from the issue of his football coaching ability.

Would he be hired by another organization? Maybe. Would it be as a head Coach? Again, maybe. That's not what you said. You said he'd have "no difficulty". He would. His personal likability is an issue because all the owners know what business they're in and he doesn't have a good enough record without a HOF QB (51-62, 2 winning seasons and one playoff trip in seven years) to put up with the fact that he comes off as a dink.

Name the team that would take him.

by LRJets Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:44 pm

Gup...I don't think or like to think George and I are "ganging' up on you without you having any air support. Not either of our styles.

Back to an age old question.....Chicken or the egg?

BB and Brady are two greats.

Having said that, would Brady have turned out as good a player as he is without Belichick?
Probably not.

Would Belichick have turned out as good a coach without Brady?
Probably not.

The only evidence falls on the previous resume Belichick had previous to the Pats HC job.
A lot of games before sniffing the playoffs.
An sub-.500 coaching record.

You can say it worked out well for the both of them.
Watching Lombardi footage this week on his 100th birthday, he said "if you're not number one, you're nothing". Broad statement, has its merits, and also flaws.
Impossible in my opinion, especially in a game of inches to declare failure if you don't break the tape.
Was Marv Levy a failure? Plenty of other successful year-in-and year-out solid coaches who never won a Lombardi. We know Lombardi's ".....winning is the only thing" mentality.

by guppy Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:51 pm

George1963 wrote:Oh George.

Oh Guppy.

OK, where could BB land? Lets think about the NFL owners. To hire him you'd have to be one of the owners that doesn't just flat dislike him and wouldn't hire him under any circumstances. Then you'd have to be one of them who isn't philisophicaly opposed to having a coach/GM. Then you'd have to be willing to overlook his less than stellar record as a GM. Then you'd need a rock solid fanbase because otherwise your ticket sales are going to fall off. People don't like him and he'll make no effort to change that.
Then you'll need to have a top five QB in place or be confident in his ability to find one because he has a track record of being mediocre head coach without a top notch QB.

Oh, you'd also have to be coachless or have one you don't mind firing.

Name that owner.

Pretty much all of them. If not all, then most of them.

by guppy Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:19 am

LRJets wrote:Gup...I don't think or like to think George and I are "ganging' up on you without you having any air support. Not either of our styles.

Ganging up or not ganging up, this latest hypothethis of you both simply goes too far. its not reasonable. Nor is it based on any facts. You haven't quoted any owners who are on record that they would not hire BB. Its all your opinion that other owners would not hire him. But that's OK, you're entitled to it. I give your joint opinion zero credit. That's my opinion. And I'm entitled to that, ok? Now lets go back to the original statement. BB, based on how he never answers reporters' questions is "not sure what line of work he is actually in." Something like that. What the hell does that mean? I really and truly don't know what the point of that statement is. To me, its not really worrh arguing over. Its stupid. Do you really have that little regard for the business acumen of Robert Kraft that he keeps this guy employed as HC year after year for no good reason? Do you really think Kraft is the ONLY NFL owner who would keep him on this many years? I guess you do. No other owner would do it according to you guys. Fine. Whatever. Thanks for playing. George's bottom line actually proved MY point. His ultimate conclusion: BB is a "dink". He certainly is. But like I said, you confuse BB's likeability with his coaching ability. You guys need to learn to separate the two.

by guppy Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:24 am

George1963 wrote: You said he'd have "no difficulty". He would.

No he would not.

by LRJets Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:35 am

Whoa....I was not in your debate with George re: would BB get re-hired?
Until recently, if not still present, is the NFL "Good ol boys" club. Fired coaches with a lesser resume than Belichick have been re-hired. Certainly BB would be on most owners' short list.

Maybe if George's theory is right about BB not being liked by some owners, possibly these owners do not like BB's personality, arrogance, or winning ways?

Does not mean they wouldn't love him for their team's HC.

I would still say BB wouldn't have his record without Brady.

Don't forget, BB followed Parcells as his DC, where he made his reputation.

by George1963 Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:46 am

Now lets go back to the original statement. BB, based on how he never answers reporters' questions is "not sure what line of work he is actually in." Something like that. What the hell does that mean?

It means an NFL owner is in the entertainment business. The league has much more in common with American Idol than it does the ancient greek olympics. BB doesn't get that or if he does, he doesn't care.

Do you really have that little regard for the business acumen of Robert Kraft that he keeps this guy employed as HC year after year for no good reason?

He's winning. That's the reason. While winning isn't really all that important to having a successful (read wildly profitable) franchise, it doesn't hurt. Kraft swung financing for the new stadium, and 10 year commitments on the most expensive seats, before they started winning.

But like I said, you confuse BB's likeability with his coaching ability. You guys need to learn to separate the two.

A prospective new employer wouldn't. That would be the part of the "difficulty" he'd have in finding a new job. I think your basic idea is "he's a great coach, of course he'd get a new job" Mine is that in reality there are reasons that every team in the league would have that would make his hiring be anywhere from a flat impossibilty to something that an owner would have to think long and hard about.

by George1963 Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:59 am

Certainly BB would be on most owners' short list.

I will say if he'd give up the idea of having total control that would be true. That would render moot the fact that he's been a mediocre personnel guy and it's a bigger thing than the fact that he's, at least publicly, a truly unpleasant human being.
Put it this way, I could live with owning a team that had Polian as the GM and Belichick as the HC.

by guppy Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:07 am

George1963 wrote:Certainly BB would be on most owners' short list.

I will say if he'd give up the idea of having total control that would be true. That would render moot the fact that he's been a mediocre personnel guy and it's a bigger thing than the fact that he's, at least publicly, a truly unpleasant human being.
Put it this way, I could live with owning a team that had Polian as the GM and Belichick as the HC.

Parcells wanted total control. But that rubbed Kraft the wrong way (I believe).

BB wanted total control. Kraft gave it to him.

Why the difference in Kraft's view of the two men who both demand the same thing?

by George1963 Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:36 am

Parcells wanted total control. But that rubbed Kraft the wrong way (I believe).

BB wanted total control. Kraft gave it to him.

Why the difference in Kraft's view of the two men who both demand the same thing?

Not a clue. Particularly since Parcells had proven he was good at it and BB, at the time he was hired, had shown he couldn't make a good pick if he had every pick in the draft.

by George1963 Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:39 am

Parcells wanted total control. But that rubbed Kraft the wrong way (I believe).

BB wanted total control. Kraft gave it to him.

Why the difference in Kraft's view of the two men who both demand the same thing?

He's the last one BTW. BB is the only Coach/GM in the league.

by guppy Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:18 pm

George1963 wrote:
Parcells wanted total control. But that rubbed Kraft the wrong way (I believe).

BB wanted total control. Kraft gave it to him.

Why the difference in Kraft's view of the two men who both demand the same thing?

He's the last one BTW. BB is the only Coach/GM in the league.

Kind of an "Oldie But Goodie" I suppose.

by LRJets Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:54 pm

I will say if he'd give up the idea of having total control that would be true. That would render moot the fact that he's been a mediocre personnel guy and it's a bigger thing than the fact that he's, at least publicly, a truly unpleasant human being.
Put it this way, I could live with owning a team that had Polian as the GM and Belichick as the HC.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]In recent years, two "classes" of coaches emerged in the NFL.

GM- Head Coach, hierarchy. (Traditional)
GM-Head Coach "All-In-One"

Parcells evolved into that latter class*. Seems the "been around awhile and showed success" few, have also graduated into that class. BB did. I believe Shanahan did as well. No Dallas coach as long as Jerrah is alive and owns the Cowboys will ever. Same with the charter NFL teams as the Giants and Steelers.

* If I'm going to do the cooking, I want to buy the groceries.

by LRJets Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:04 pm

He's winning. That's the reason. While winning isn't really all that important to having a successful (read wildly profitable) franchise, it doesn't hurt. Kraft swung financing for the new stadium, and 10 year commitments on the most expensive seats, before they started winning.

Didn't Rags used to say that Kraft conned the democrats (Most of Mass.) by threatening to move to Hartford and build a stadium there?

After the Pats acquired Tebow, much of the media said "Belichick is famous for revamping long-time NFL players into once again productive players." He actually did it with younger players like Danny Woodhead and Wes Welker.
The hard core players with not-so-great reps couldn't be rehabilitated by BB.
T.O., Albert Haynesworth, Randy Moss, to name a few. Don't reply with "BB got rid of them", because other teams did just that before him.

by guppy Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:41 pm

LRJets wrote:He's winning. That's the reason. While winning isn't really all that important to having a successful (read wildly profitable) franchise, it doesn't hurt. Kraft swung financing for the new stadium, and 10 year commitments on the most expensive seats, before they started winning.

Didn't Rags used to say that Kraft conned the democrats (Most of Mass.) by threatening to move to Hartford and build a stadium there?

After the Pats acquired Tebow, much of the media said "Belichick is famous for revamping long-time NFL players into once again productive players." He actually did it with younger players like Danny Woodhead and Wes Welker.
The hard core players with not-so-great reps couldn't be rehabilitated by BB.
T.O., Albert Haynesworth, Randy Moss, to name a few. Don't reply with "BB got rid of them", because other teams did just that before him.

Randy Moss? I consider Randy Moss a hugely successful acquisition. Not to be mentioned in the same sentence as Haynesworth and Ocho Cinco at all. Randy was doing ZIP in Oakland, and BB got him for a song. I don't care if Moss had only one great year in NE. It was one f$%g SPECTACULAR year. Got the most out of him. A lot of thrills. A lot of records broken. Not sure why you're mentioning T.O. You must mean someone else. Wasn't Corey Dillon supposed to be a bad guy? He pounded the rock in NE all the way to a Lombardi trophy.

The fact that BB is willing to give certain guys a shot when they underperformed for their former teams is a good thing. Talent can come out in the right situation. Obviously you can't bat 1.000. Who does? Danny Woodhead is a great example. He was a cast off of another team. That team couldn't use him. Flat out cut him. Possibly you remember. Once in NE he was certainly very productive. Mike Vrabel? The Steelers couldn't find a use for him. BB picked him up and his role in NE became huge -- on defense (sacks) AND offense (touchdowns). Linebacker Adalius Thomas really didn't live up to expectations. Can't really put my finger on why because the guy had talent. But how about BB bringing in the old man Junior Seau? I'd say that worked out well overall. Junior had a limited role and limited expectations, and he did some good things on the field. I'd call Seau a successful acquition for NE.

So like anyting in sports, there are hits and misses. But you can't make a hit unless you take a swing. BB takes his swings on free agents and other teams' cast offs. Tebow is now one of them. Obviously, Kraft is OK with BB swinging at some balls "outside the strike zone" as far as free agents go, as well as with his overall batting average.

by guppy Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:27 pm

George1963 wrote:
BB, at the time he was hired, had shown he couldn't make a good pick if he had every pick in the draft.

Well I'm not sure what he had shown for success at drafting "at the time he was hired". Because it certainly was not on behalf of NE. He just got hired, so obviously he had not made any picks for NE yet. You must be talking about picks he made for Cleveland prior to becoming the HC of the NEP. I don't have the facts handy to know his draft track record with Cleveland. Not interested in looking them up either. But according you they must have been pretty bad. Doesn't matter. Its ancient history. So in 2000 he starts fresh with NE. That first year he didn't need every pick in the draft to make at least one good pick. It was in the 6th round if I recall. He picked a skinny QB from Michigan that all the other "smart" GMs passed on multiple times. Thirteen years later that draft pick is still suiting up at starting QB for the Patriots on game day. How many other players drafted in 2000 are even still in the league today? I'll go out on a limb and say that one pick kinda worked out. Perhaps even enough to say that the success brought by that pick was great enough to cancel out all the so-called "bad" picks made thereafter for a period of _____ years. (You fill it in.)

But if you like to focus on draft picks that have failed, and use that as your argument to say he should stick to coaching, and leave the GM duties to others, I hear what you're sayin and I'll take it under consideration.

by LRJets Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:18 pm

I understand since the Pats did so well under BB, he hasn't had many chances for blue chippers. BB loved to accumulate many DPs over the years. I think if he had a top ten DP, he'd probably trade it down. I think he and Kraft figure no one player is worth two players right out of college.
I'll say you're right on with Beli's use of problem children. Some fared well, some didn't.
Yes Moss had his moments as a Patriot. Looking back, I remember being surprised he wasn't brought back after what was his last run there.
For one game, I'd want BB as the coach.
(Except the SB vs. the Giants) Smile

by George1963 Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:48 am

Randy Moss? I consider Randy Moss a hugely successful acquisition. Not to be mentioned in the same sentence as Haynesworth and Ocho Cinco at all.

Linebacker Adalius Thomas really didn't live up to expectations. Can't really put my finger on why because the guy had talent.

They're connected Gup. Derrick Burgess too.

by George1963 Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:12 pm

BB, at the time he was hired, had shown he couldn't make a good pick if he had every pick in the draft.

Well I'm not sure what he had shown for success at drafting "at the time he was hired". Because it certainly was not on behalf of NE. He just got hired, so obviously he had not made any picks for NE yet.

You asked why Kraft changed his mind from BP to BB. I said I had no clue why he wouldn't let a guy who'd proven he could find players pick them then give total control to a guy who, at the time he was given that control, had proven he couldn't find his ass with both hands and a mirror.

I don't have the facts handy to know his draft track record with Cleveland. Not interested in looking them up either.

If you need a laugh, do it. If you've ever heard of six guys out of the 41 he drafted in Cleveland you'll be doing pretty good. Ironically, during that same time period Parcells and Bobby Grier were picking six guys who were critical to the Pats success in the early 2000s. Funny how things work out.

That first year he didn't need every pick in the draft to make at least one good pick. It was in the 6th round if I recall. He picked a skinny QB from Michigan that all the other "smart" GMs passed on multiple times.

Working off Griers list with strong input from Dick Rhebien.
You can't give BB any credit for this one. He even admits in Halberstams book that he was only "vaugly aware" of who Brady was when he was drafted.
There was a special recently on ESPN called The Brady Six or something about Brady and the six QBs taken before him. BB only knew they would take a QB late, Rhebien, although he liked Brady would have taken Bulger if he had slipped, and the only NFL executive to call Michigan about TB was...........Bobby Grier.
Think they sent him a ring like they did Mo Lewis?

by guppy Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:26 pm

George1963 wrote:the only NFL executive to call Michigan about TB was...........Bobby Grier.

Think they sent him a ring like they did Mo Lewis?

LOL. One of your better lines.

What do you mean "a" ring? How about three?

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by guppy Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:34 pm

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by LRJets Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:22 pm

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Or is it Man of "Steal"?

by guppy Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:14 pm

LRJets wrote:Or is it Man of "Steal"?

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by LRJets Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:29 pm

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Guess I was trollin'

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