Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
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Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:46 pm
Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
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By [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on Oct 13, 11:30p
Whether from a bar stool at The Alley Cat, or my couch in my basement, I have been and shall always be, a fan of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. And as such a fan, I find myself unable to be disconnected to BTSC; I need both the security blanket feeling one gets when in communication with fellow natives of Steeler Nation, and a place to vent, conjecture, lecture, admonish or praise my fellow BTSC’ers, for in doing so I come to terms with the emotions and thoughts that the Steelers’ performance incites within me.
That all said, it has been a fascinating few weeks, the period between the loss to the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and the loss to the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Two losses resulting from 4th qtr breakdowns of our vaunted defense, sandwiching a last minute win pulled out by unlikely hero [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I strongly encourage all of you to read Ms. Rollett’s excellent piece on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]; if you sit back and think it through after reading, should help calm your nerves in terms of our kicking game).
What has struck me the most in the plethora of negative posts is that they fall into two camps; (1) the "Cowher-ites" folks who, like those who harken back for "the simpler, happier times of the 50’s in America" seem to believe the prior generation had it better; and (2) "Villagers", those people who, as so so eloquently described [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] fine FanPost as the" villagers [who] become an unruly mob screaming for the heads of every player, coach and water boy in Rooneyville. "This shall not stand," we bray in unison as we light our torches, bidding to hasten a swift return to our previous state of beer- and glory-sated bliss"; folks who demand the head of the DC Dick LeBeau, or the hands of CB [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], or the spleen of HC Mike Tomlin (presumably to replace the one they just vented?), for their imagined failures at play calling, at defending a pass, or for his draft picks (respectively).
Of course, a Steeler loss brings out the "Villagers" Billy52 wrote about; those PostRoaches, creatures who are never heard from until there’s a crumb of discontent, then they all come scurrying out to feed, posting all sorts of filth and spreading acrimony, only to disappear again in the bright lights of a subsequent victory.
Or, it brings out the deluded "Cowher-ites", who believe life was better "back in the day" when the Steelers visited the Super Bowl twice in 15 years.
However, not all such posts are without merit. They usually lack content, and for the most part the writers should be either pitied for their delusions, or put down like the exposed Londoners in the movie "28 Days Later" who, being infected with "Rage" spew violence with their words, and are a risk to spread their contagion if not dealt with "with extreme prejudice".
But within these posts, hidden behind the distracting rhetoric of the writer, is some food-for-thought, and a common theme I have found, after perusing these types of posts, that has to do with drafting.
The "Cowher-ites":
The Cowher-ites seem to think that the Steelers performed better under Cowher than they do under Tomlin. Amidst the usual comparisons of the running game and the defense (but lost in the comprehension that the NFL is a different type of League than it was under Cowher [let alone Noll]) is the oft repeated complaint that Cowher knew how to draft better than Tomlin; that we had better teams under Cowher, despite his only winning the Super Bowl once in two tries.
So, let’s look at a comparison of the drafting done by Cowher and Tomlin. First though, the parameters of my analysis:
First: I’m only comparing the first 5 years of Cowher’s tenure as Head Coach (1992 to 1996), against Tomlin’s first 5 years (2007 to 2011) for the obvious reason that Tomlin has only completed 5 full seasons.
Second: I am using exclusively, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] data ("PFR"). Specifically, I have updated a database with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], which includes their full 2011 scoring of the players’ CarAV rating they have established, and which is cumulative for the entirety of the players’ career, regardless of who they currently play for.
Third: Because some of the players drafted by Cowher played beyond his first 5 years, while only Tomlin’s first draft has had the opportunity to play for 5 years, I have taken each player’s CarAV score and divided it by the number of years said player has played. This creates a "CarAV per year" score that somewhat equalizes the comparative measurement. Tomlin’s score suffers somewhat due to the fact that his recent picks have not yet had time to reach their full potential, but overall this method should provide a more fair comparison.
I’ll let the results speak for themselves:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
As you can see, in their first five years, there’s only a two game difference in the win column. Of course, Tomlin went to two Super Bowls, winning one while Cowher lost the only Super Bowl he reached in [i]his first 5 years. But such achievements are dependent upon vagaries outside the scope of this analysis.
The evenness of the two Coaches’ records would suggest a parity in their respective players. Let’s look at how the CarAv per Year of Cowher’s draft picks compare to Tomlin’s, and how each Coache's first 5 Draft classes compare:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
As you can see, the players Tomlin has drafted in his first 5 years average an annual CarAV score of 2.09 as compared to Cowhers’ 1.17. In addition, Tomlin’s Lowest and Highest scores exceed Cowhers.
This is where comparing a 5 year block of data for a Coach whose players could have played far longer than those five years, against a Coach whose players are still in the midst of their careers is difficult, but even so, with the majority of Tomlin’s players yet to reach their most productive years, Mike Tomlin’s draft picks have performed better than Bill Cowher’s, based on the PFR method of measuring a player’s performance.
Remember, these numbers represent PFR’s CarAV on a per year basis. Thus, while initially the difference between Tomlin’s 2.09 and Cowher’s 1.19 may not seem large, if you extrapolate them over the course of an average [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] career of 3.5 years, you begin to see the scale of the gap in the quality of Tomlin’s draft picks over Cowher’s:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Thus, in this Part I, we see that the Cowher-ites, in terms of their longing for the quality of Cowher’s draft picks over their perceived deficiencies of Tomlin’s, are indeed blinded by the mists of time. Bill Cowher is worthy of HOF consideration, with his first year of eligibility coming up this year. Nothing written here is meant to diminish the fantastic successes his Steeler teams had, nor to denigrate Cowher in any way.
But rather, maybe its time for the Cowher-ites to let go of the past, and, if true Steeler fans, embrace the current Steelers, and accept that even for the Pittsburgh Steelers under Mike Tomlin, not every year is going to be a Lombardi Year.
[i] career approximate value. See the entry on AV. The Career AV is computed by summing 100% of the player's best-season AV, 95% of his second-best-season AV, 90% of his third best, and so on. The idea is that the Career AV rating should weight peak seasons slightly more than "compiler"-type seasons.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
By [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] on Oct 13, 11:30p
Whether from a bar stool at The Alley Cat, or my couch in my basement, I have been and shall always be, a fan of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. And as such a fan, I find myself unable to be disconnected to BTSC; I need both the security blanket feeling one gets when in communication with fellow natives of Steeler Nation, and a place to vent, conjecture, lecture, admonish or praise my fellow BTSC’ers, for in doing so I come to terms with the emotions and thoughts that the Steelers’ performance incites within me.
That all said, it has been a fascinating few weeks, the period between the loss to the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and the loss to the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Two losses resulting from 4th qtr breakdowns of our vaunted defense, sandwiching a last minute win pulled out by unlikely hero [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I strongly encourage all of you to read Ms. Rollett’s excellent piece on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]; if you sit back and think it through after reading, should help calm your nerves in terms of our kicking game).
What has struck me the most in the plethora of negative posts is that they fall into two camps; (1) the "Cowher-ites" folks who, like those who harken back for "the simpler, happier times of the 50’s in America" seem to believe the prior generation had it better; and (2) "Villagers", those people who, as so so eloquently described [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] fine FanPost as the" villagers [who] become an unruly mob screaming for the heads of every player, coach and water boy in Rooneyville. "This shall not stand," we bray in unison as we light our torches, bidding to hasten a swift return to our previous state of beer- and glory-sated bliss"; folks who demand the head of the DC Dick LeBeau, or the hands of CB [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], or the spleen of HC Mike Tomlin (presumably to replace the one they just vented?), for their imagined failures at play calling, at defending a pass, or for his draft picks (respectively).
Of course, a Steeler loss brings out the "Villagers" Billy52 wrote about; those PostRoaches, creatures who are never heard from until there’s a crumb of discontent, then they all come scurrying out to feed, posting all sorts of filth and spreading acrimony, only to disappear again in the bright lights of a subsequent victory.
Or, it brings out the deluded "Cowher-ites", who believe life was better "back in the day" when the Steelers visited the Super Bowl twice in 15 years.
However, not all such posts are without merit. They usually lack content, and for the most part the writers should be either pitied for their delusions, or put down like the exposed Londoners in the movie "28 Days Later" who, being infected with "Rage" spew violence with their words, and are a risk to spread their contagion if not dealt with "with extreme prejudice".
But within these posts, hidden behind the distracting rhetoric of the writer, is some food-for-thought, and a common theme I have found, after perusing these types of posts, that has to do with drafting.
The "Cowher-ites":
The Cowher-ites seem to think that the Steelers performed better under Cowher than they do under Tomlin. Amidst the usual comparisons of the running game and the defense (but lost in the comprehension that the NFL is a different type of League than it was under Cowher [let alone Noll]) is the oft repeated complaint that Cowher knew how to draft better than Tomlin; that we had better teams under Cowher, despite his only winning the Super Bowl once in two tries.
So, let’s look at a comparison of the drafting done by Cowher and Tomlin. First though, the parameters of my analysis:
First: I’m only comparing the first 5 years of Cowher’s tenure as Head Coach (1992 to 1996), against Tomlin’s first 5 years (2007 to 2011) for the obvious reason that Tomlin has only completed 5 full seasons.
Second: I am using exclusively, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] data ("PFR"). Specifically, I have updated a database with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], which includes their full 2011 scoring of the players’ CarAV rating they have established, and which is cumulative for the entirety of the players’ career, regardless of who they currently play for.
Third: Because some of the players drafted by Cowher played beyond his first 5 years, while only Tomlin’s first draft has had the opportunity to play for 5 years, I have taken each player’s CarAV score and divided it by the number of years said player has played. This creates a "CarAV per year" score that somewhat equalizes the comparative measurement. Tomlin’s score suffers somewhat due to the fact that his recent picks have not yet had time to reach their full potential, but overall this method should provide a more fair comparison.
I’ll let the results speak for themselves:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
As you can see, in their first five years, there’s only a two game difference in the win column. Of course, Tomlin went to two Super Bowls, winning one while Cowher lost the only Super Bowl he reached in [i]his first 5 years. But such achievements are dependent upon vagaries outside the scope of this analysis.
The evenness of the two Coaches’ records would suggest a parity in their respective players. Let’s look at how the CarAv per Year of Cowher’s draft picks compare to Tomlin’s, and how each Coache's first 5 Draft classes compare:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
As you can see, the players Tomlin has drafted in his first 5 years average an annual CarAV score of 2.09 as compared to Cowhers’ 1.17. In addition, Tomlin’s Lowest and Highest scores exceed Cowhers.
This is where comparing a 5 year block of data for a Coach whose players could have played far longer than those five years, against a Coach whose players are still in the midst of their careers is difficult, but even so, with the majority of Tomlin’s players yet to reach their most productive years, Mike Tomlin’s draft picks have performed better than Bill Cowher’s, based on the PFR method of measuring a player’s performance.
Remember, these numbers represent PFR’s CarAV on a per year basis. Thus, while initially the difference between Tomlin’s 2.09 and Cowher’s 1.19 may not seem large, if you extrapolate them over the course of an average [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] career of 3.5 years, you begin to see the scale of the gap in the quality of Tomlin’s draft picks over Cowher’s:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Thus, in this Part I, we see that the Cowher-ites, in terms of their longing for the quality of Cowher’s draft picks over their perceived deficiencies of Tomlin’s, are indeed blinded by the mists of time. Bill Cowher is worthy of HOF consideration, with his first year of eligibility coming up this year. Nothing written here is meant to diminish the fantastic successes his Steeler teams had, nor to denigrate Cowher in any way.
But rather, maybe its time for the Cowher-ites to let go of the past, and, if true Steeler fans, embrace the current Steelers, and accept that even for the Pittsburgh Steelers under Mike Tomlin, not every year is going to be a Lombardi Year.
[i] career approximate value. See the entry on AV. The Career AV is computed by summing 100% of the player's best-season AV, 95% of his second-best-season AV, 90% of his third best, and so on. The idea is that the Career AV rating should weight peak seasons slightly more than "compiler"-type seasons.
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:49 pm
WHENEVER YOU AND TEH REST OF TEH WORLD FINALLY COME AROUND TO ADMITTING MIKE TOMLIN PILED UP THAT RECORD UP IN HIS FIRST 5 YEARS WITH BILL COWHER'S TEAM...YOU LET ME KNOW...TILL TEHN SILLYNESS LIKE THIS ARTICLE AND ANYONE WHO THINKS IT HOLDS MERIT IN COMPARING TEH TWO'S RECORDS IS SILLY AND RIDICULIOUS TO....ALL TOMLIN DID WAS WATCH BILL COWHER'S TEAM WIN THAT RECORD FOR HIM...HE HARDLY COACHED IT OR BUILT IT OR MADE IT HAPPEN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM..
TOMLIN HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN CHARGE OF TEH PART OF TEH TEAM THAT STRUGGLES WHILE LEBEAU HELD HIS HAND AND SAVED HIM ALL TEHSE YEARS...HE CANT EVEN DO THAT ANYMORE CAUSE TOMLIN HAS GIVEN LEBEAU NO NEW FRESH MEAT TO KEEP IT ROLLING LIEK COWHER ALWAYS DID...DO NOT CARE IF TEH PLAYERS LIKE TOMLIN OR NOT....HES A FAKE..AND NOW THAT THINGS ARE ON ITS WAY OUT CAUSE OF HIS INCOMPETENCE TEH LAST 6 YEARS HE CANT KEEP IT TOGETHER....
ANYONE BUYING INTO WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOVE IS SIMPLY DELUSIONAL AND GRASPING AT STRAWS....UNTIL YOU F'ING PEOPLE LOST IN YOUR DELUSIONS CAN ADMIT COHWER'S RECORD IS REAL AND WAS EARNED..AND TOMLIN'S IS UNEARNED AND FAKE....WE KAN TALK....TILL THEN...GO POUND ROCK SALT UP YOUR LYIN' EXCUSE MAKING ASSES....
FURTHER MORE....TEH NAMES YOU CAN LIST TAHT WERE DRAFTED UNDER COWHER....VS. TEH NAMES YOU CAN LIST TAHT WERE DRAFTED UNDER TOMLIN IS STAGGERING IN TEH DIFFERENCE OF QUALITY...SIMPLY STAGGERING....ITS WHY IN 15 YEARS COWHER NEVER REALLY HAD A DOWN TIME AND BUILT 2 SEPEARTE DYNASTYS....MEANWHILE TOMLIN JUST ROAD TEH COATTAILS TILL IT CRASHED AND NOW DOESNT KNOW WHAT TO DO CAUSE HE HAS NO REAL EXPERIENCE OR FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE....
AND HE HAS CERTAINLY NOT LEARNED ANYTHING DURING HIS 6 YEARS AS A HEAD COACH EITHER..ITS WORSE EVERY YEAR..AND ITS ALWAYS TEH SAME MISTAKES AND PROBLEMS...THIS TEAM AINT COMING BACK UNDER HIM...SO YOU MITE AS WELL JUST ACCEPT THAT NOW....IF YOU DONT..ITS JUST YET ANOTEHR DELESUION...
SORRY GUYS...BUT COWHER ISNT NO LONGER THERE TO SAVE TEH DAY...AND MIKE TOMLIN COULDNT ON HIS BEST DAY....SO YOU CAN PRINT THIS ARTICLE AND YOUR OTEHR B.S. ARTICLES OUT ON SHITPAPER AND WIPE YOUR ASS WITH THEM..CAUSE THAT SALL THEY ARE WORTH....BILL COWHER BUILT HIS TEAMS...MIKE TOMLIN DID NOT..WHICH MEENS HIS RECORD IS FAKE IN THAT SENSE WHICH IS WHAT COUNTS UNDERNEATH IT ALL IN DETERMINING A COACH'S WORTH...CASE CLOSED..GET OVER IT...MIKE TOMLIN WOULD NOT HAVE THAT RECORD IF IT WERENT FOR BILL COWHER..AND WE ALL KNOW IT...SO CUT TEH LYING ALREADY...
TOMLIN HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN CHARGE OF TEH PART OF TEH TEAM THAT STRUGGLES WHILE LEBEAU HELD HIS HAND AND SAVED HIM ALL TEHSE YEARS...HE CANT EVEN DO THAT ANYMORE CAUSE TOMLIN HAS GIVEN LEBEAU NO NEW FRESH MEAT TO KEEP IT ROLLING LIEK COWHER ALWAYS DID...DO NOT CARE IF TEH PLAYERS LIKE TOMLIN OR NOT....HES A FAKE..AND NOW THAT THINGS ARE ON ITS WAY OUT CAUSE OF HIS INCOMPETENCE TEH LAST 6 YEARS HE CANT KEEP IT TOGETHER....
ANYONE BUYING INTO WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOVE IS SIMPLY DELUSIONAL AND GRASPING AT STRAWS....UNTIL YOU F'ING PEOPLE LOST IN YOUR DELUSIONS CAN ADMIT COHWER'S RECORD IS REAL AND WAS EARNED..AND TOMLIN'S IS UNEARNED AND FAKE....WE KAN TALK....TILL THEN...GO POUND ROCK SALT UP YOUR LYIN' EXCUSE MAKING ASSES....
FURTHER MORE....TEH NAMES YOU CAN LIST TAHT WERE DRAFTED UNDER COWHER....VS. TEH NAMES YOU CAN LIST TAHT WERE DRAFTED UNDER TOMLIN IS STAGGERING IN TEH DIFFERENCE OF QUALITY...SIMPLY STAGGERING....ITS WHY IN 15 YEARS COWHER NEVER REALLY HAD A DOWN TIME AND BUILT 2 SEPEARTE DYNASTYS....MEANWHILE TOMLIN JUST ROAD TEH COATTAILS TILL IT CRASHED AND NOW DOESNT KNOW WHAT TO DO CAUSE HE HAS NO REAL EXPERIENCE OR FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE....
AND HE HAS CERTAINLY NOT LEARNED ANYTHING DURING HIS 6 YEARS AS A HEAD COACH EITHER..ITS WORSE EVERY YEAR..AND ITS ALWAYS TEH SAME MISTAKES AND PROBLEMS...THIS TEAM AINT COMING BACK UNDER HIM...SO YOU MITE AS WELL JUST ACCEPT THAT NOW....IF YOU DONT..ITS JUST YET ANOTEHR DELESUION...
SORRY GUYS...BUT COWHER ISNT NO LONGER THERE TO SAVE TEH DAY...AND MIKE TOMLIN COULDNT ON HIS BEST DAY....SO YOU CAN PRINT THIS ARTICLE AND YOUR OTEHR B.S. ARTICLES OUT ON SHITPAPER AND WIPE YOUR ASS WITH THEM..CAUSE THAT SALL THEY ARE WORTH....BILL COWHER BUILT HIS TEAMS...MIKE TOMLIN DID NOT..WHICH MEENS HIS RECORD IS FAKE IN THAT SENSE WHICH IS WHAT COUNTS UNDERNEATH IT ALL IN DETERMINING A COACH'S WORTH...CASE CLOSED..GET OVER IT...MIKE TOMLIN WOULD NOT HAVE THAT RECORD IF IT WERENT FOR BILL COWHER..AND WE ALL KNOW IT...SO CUT TEH LYING ALREADY...
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:58 pm
YOU CAN SIMPLY PUT IT THIS WAY...THIS TEAM IS NOT TAHT MUCH WORSE THAN IT WAS LAST YEAR OR TEH YEAR BEFORE OR EVEN TEH YEAR BEFORE THAT..ITS JUST BEING RUN WRONG..AND HAS TEH WORNG PLAYERS PLAYING IN CERTAIN POSITIONS CAUSE OF INCOMPETENCE..INCLUDING PLAYERS TAHT ARE MISSING TAHT SHOULD HAVE BEEN GOT BUT WASNT....YOU DONT GO FROM CONTENDERS TO NOT EVEN BEING ABLE TO BEAT TEAMS LIKE OAKLAND..DENVER AND TENNESSEE OVERNITE..SORRY A TEAM JUST DOESNT GO SOUTH THAT FAST IN TEH TALENT DEPARTMENT....BUT HOW ITS COACHED AND TEH DECISIONS MADE CAN MAKE A TEAM GO SOUTH TAHT FAST...WHICH IS TEH REAL CAUSE..CAUSE MIKE TOMLIN IS A BAD HEAD COACH...AND HES EARNED NOTHING IN MY OPINION...IT WILL CONTINUE TO GET WORSE..I CAN ASSURE YOU
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:00 pm
IF ANYTHING DIEHARD...IF YOU WANNA COMPARE COWHER AND TOMLIN IN A FAIR LITE..YOUD HAVE TO COMPARE TOMLINS NEXT 5 YEARS TO COWHERS FIRST 5 YEARS GOD FORBID IF HES HERE THAT LONG...THAT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE ACCURATE COMPARISON...BUT WE CANT AFFORD TO WAIT THAT LONG..HELL NEVER BE AROUND TAHT LONG..CAUS ETHIS THING IS GONNA GET REAL UGLY BEFORE ITS OVER...
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:04 pm
DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:IF ANYTHING DIEHARD...IF YOU WANNA COMPARE COWHER AND TOMLIN IN A FAIR LITE..YOUD HAVE TO COMPARE TOMLINS NEXT 5 YEARS TO COWHERS FIRST 5 YEARS GOD FORBID IF HES HERE THAT LONG...THAT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE ACCURATE COMPARISON...BUT WE CANT AFFORD TO WAIT THAT LONG..HELL NEVER BE AROUND TAHT LONG..CAUS ETHIS THING IS GONNA GET REAL UGLY BEFORE ITS OVER...
Read part 2 and then you might see some surprises.
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:08 pm
YOU CAN CERTAINLY COMPARE THEIR DRAFTING...BUT YOU SURE AS HELL KANT COMPARE THEIR RECORDS IN TEH WIN LOSS COLUME OR ANY SUCCESS HAD....CAUSE ONE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THEIR RECORDS IN REALITY..CANT BE DENIED..
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:09 pm
DiehardSteelersfan wrote:DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:IF ANYTHING DIEHARD...IF YOU WANNA COMPARE COWHER AND TOMLIN IN A FAIR LITE..YOUD HAVE TO COMPARE TOMLINS NEXT 5 YEARS TO COWHERS FIRST 5 YEARS GOD FORBID IF HES HERE THAT LONG...THAT WOULD BE A MUCH MORE ACCURATE COMPARISON...BUT WE CANT AFFORD TO WAIT THAT LONG..HELL NEVER BE AROUND TAHT LONG..CAUS ETHIS THING IS GONNA GET REAL UGLY BEFORE ITS OVER...
Read part 2 and then you might see some surprises.
I HADNT GOT AROUND T O LOOKING AT TEH 2ND PART YET...CAUSE IT HAS TO B E JUST AS MUCH BULLSHIT AS TEH FIRST ONE...YOU CANNOT MAKE THSI COMPARISON...YOU CANT...ANYONE DOING IT IS BEING ILLOGICAL....ITS BEEN COWHER'S TEAM TEH LAST 6 YEARS...NOT MIKE TOMLINS...
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Admin Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:12 pm
But if we use your logic and move back to the beginning... that would mean Cowher inherited Chuck Noll's team and players. I'm not doing anything more than using your logic and expanding upon it. Cowhe'rs 1st 5 years were no more his, than Tomlin's are his..... using your measuring stick. So Cowher was successful because of Chuck Noll?DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:YOU CAN CERTAINLY COMPARE THEIR DRAFTING...BUT YOU SURE AS HELL KANT COMPARE THEIR RECORDS IN TEH WIN LOSS COLUME OR ANY SUCCESS HAD....CAUSE ONE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THEIR RECORDS IN REALITY..CANT BE DENIED..
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Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:30 pm
Admin wrote:But if we use your logic and move back to the beginning... that would mean Cowher inherited Chuck Noll's team and players. I'm not doing anything more than using your logic and expanding upon it. Cowhe'rs 1st 5 years were no more his, than Tomlin's are his..... using your measuring stick. So Cowher was successful because of Chuck Noll?DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:YOU CAN CERTAINLY COMPARE THEIR DRAFTING...BUT YOU SURE AS HELL KANT COMPARE THEIR RECORDS IN TEH WIN LOSS COLUME OR ANY SUCCESS HAD....CAUSE ONE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THEIR RECORDS IN REALITY..CANT BE DENIED..
ABSOLUTELY NOT....TEH STEELERS WERE NOWHERE NEAR TEH TEAM COWHER WAS GIVEN TAHT TOMLIN WAS GIVEN...STEELERS HAD SUX'D TEH ENTIRE DECADE BEFORE COWHER ARRIVED..NOLLS TEH GREATEST...BUT HIS DAYS WERE FINALLY OVER AFTER 23 YEARS....SURE THERE WAS SOME GOOD NAMES COWHER INHERITED....BUT IT WAS HARDLY A WINNER..OR A COMPLETE TEAM..NOR DID IT HAVE A QB....TOMLIN WAS HANDED A TURN KEY SUPER BOWL TEAM WITH TEH #1 DEFENSE AND A FRANCHISE QB AND AN EXPERIENCED TEAM THAT KNEW HOW TO WIN....COWHERS RECORD SPEEKS FOR ITSELF...HE WENT TO TEH PLAYOFFS HIS 1ST 6 YEARS IN A ROW INCLUDING A SUPER BOWL...HIS GREATNESS WAS APPARENT IMMMEDIATELY....MIKE TOMLIN HAS DONE NO SUCH THING...YOU CANNOT MAKE THSI COMPARISON..YOU SIMPLY CANT..IT IS TWO UNIQUE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS....AND COWHER DID IT TWICE PROVING IT WAS HIM AND NOT WHAT NOLL GAVE HIM...WHICH WAS NOTHING BUT SOME GOOD LINEBACKERS REALLY..WHO BY TEH WAY DIDNT BECOME GREAT TILL COWHER TOOK OVER....AS I SAI DINA PREVIOUS POST...WHOS TO SAY COWHER COULDNT HAVE MADE TEH SAME PICKS TOMLIN MADE INTO BETTER PLAYERS IF HE WAS THERE AND TOMLIN WASNT...I BELIEVE TAHT TO BE FAIRLY TRUE AS WELL....THEY ARE JUST KIDS COMING OUT OF SCHOOL WHO NEED MOLDED INTO SOMETHING...AND COWHER WAS A 1000% BETTER AT THAT THAN TOMLIN....HE TURNED LATE ROUND SHIT INTO GOLD ON A REGULAR BASIS...TOMLIN CANT EVEN DO TAHT WITH HIS #1 AND #2 PICKS....
Guest- Guest
Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Admin Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:35 pm
The biggest difference between your opinion and mine is this : You feel Cowher was the greatest and Tomlin is the worst. I think Cowher was very good and Tomlin isn't as bad as you say. Other than the difference in how we rank the two and their teams... we're on the same page with the overall view.DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:Admin wrote:But if we use your logic and move back to the beginning... that would mean Cowher inherited Chuck Noll's team and players. I'm not doing anything more than using your logic and expanding upon it. Cowhe'rs 1st 5 years were no more his, than Tomlin's are his..... using your measuring stick. So Cowher was successful because of Chuck Noll?DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:YOU CAN CERTAINLY COMPARE THEIR DRAFTING...BUT YOU SURE AS HELL KANT COMPARE THEIR RECORDS IN TEH WIN LOSS COLUME OR ANY SUCCESS HAD....CAUSE ONE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THEIR RECORDS IN REALITY..CANT BE DENIED..
ABSOLUTELY NOT....TEH STEELERS WERE NOWHERE NEAR TEH TEAM COWHER WAS GIVEN TAHT TOMLIN WAS GIVEN...STEELERS HAD SUX'D TEH ENTIRE DECADE BEFORE COWHER ARRIVED..NOLLS TEH GREATEST...BUT HIS DAYS WERE FINALLY OVER AFTER 23 YEARS....SURE THERE WAS SOME GOOD NAMES COWHER INHERITED....BUT IT WAS HARDLY A WINNER..OR A COMPLETE TEAM..NOR DID IT HAVE A QB....TOMLIN WAS HANDED A TURN KEY SUPER BOWL TEAM WITH TEH #1 DEFENSE AND A FRANCHISE QB AND AN EXPERIENCED TEAM THAT KNEW HOW TO WIN....COWHERS RECORD SPEEKS FOR ITSELF...HE WENT TO TEH PLAYOFFS HIS 1ST 6 YEARS IN A ROW INCLUDING A SUPER BOWL...HIS GREATNESS WAS APPARENT IMMMEDIATELY....MIKE TOMLIN HAS DONE NO SUCH THING...YOU CANNOT MAKE THSI COMPARISON..YOU SIMPLY CANT..IT IS TWO UNIQUE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS....AND COWHER DID IT TWICE PROVING IT WAS HIM AND NOT WHAT NOLL GAVE HIM...WHICH WAS NOTHING BUT SOME GOOD LINEBACKERS REALLY..WHO BY TEH WAY DIDNT BECOME GREAT TILL COWHER TOOK OVER....AS I SAI DINA PREVIOUS POST...WHOS TO SAY COWHER COULDNT HAVE MADE TEH SAME PICKS TOMLIN MADE INTO BETTER PLAYERS IF HE WAS THERE AND TOMLIN WASNT...I BELIEVE TAHT TO BE FAIRLY TRUE AS WELL....THEY ARE JUST KIDS COMING OUT OF SCHOOL WHO NEED MOLDED INTO SOMETHING...AND COWHER WAS A 1000% BETTER AT THAT THAN TOMLIN....HE TURNED LATE ROUND SHIT INTO GOLD ON A REGULAR BASIS...TOMLIN CANT EVEN DO TAHT WITH HIS #1 AND #2 PICKS....
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Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:38 pm
IN MY OPINION..YOU CAN HAVE TEH BEST RAW TAELNT AVAILABLE...IF YOU DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT..IT WILL NEVER REACH ITS POTENTIAL..I MEEN TAHT HAS TO MAKE SENSE TO EVEN MY BIGGEST CRITICS....AND TAHT IS MIKE TOMLINS BIGGEST PROBLEM...HES LOST AND WINGING IT....CAUSE HE JUST DOONT KNOW WHAT TO DO CAUSE HE AINT A FOOTBALL MAN...NEVER WAS NEVER WILL BE...AND HIS RESUME COULD FIT ON A 1" X 1" "POST-A-NOTE" PAD....AND ITS KLEER..AT LEAST TO ME..HE HAS NO UPSIDE....IF HE AINT FIGUERED IT OUT BY NOW..HE AINT GONNA..AND HE HASNT....TEH TEAM HASNT DEGRADED THAT BADLY TAHT FAST IN TERMS OF TEH TEAM ITSELF...ITS HIM....AND HIS DECISIONS....ON FIELD AND OFF FIELD AND OFFSEASON DECISIONS THAT HAVE KILLED IT....ITS ALL MENTAL..NOT A PHYSICAL PROBLEM....SUCH AS TEH OTEHR NITE HE SIMPLY THREW TAHT GAME AWAY TRYING FOR A 54 YARD FIELD GOAL THAT HAD ABOUT A 10% CHANCE OF HAPPENING..A SMART COACH WOULD HAVE PUNTED AND TOOK HIS CHANCES MAKING THEM HAVE TO GO 60 YARDS INSTEAD OF 15 FO RT EH WINNING FIELD GOAL..SORRY TEH GUY IS JUST NOT FOOTBALL SAVVY...YOU KANT TEACH THAT
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Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
by Guest Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:52 pm
Admin wrote:The biggest difference between your opinion and mine is this : You feel Cowher was the greatest and Tomlin is the worst. I think Cowher was very good and Tomlin isn't as bad as you say. Other than the difference in how we rank the two and their teams... we're on the same page with the overall view.DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:Admin wrote:But if we use your logic and move back to the beginning... that would mean Cowher inherited Chuck Noll's team and players. I'm not doing anything more than using your logic and expanding upon it. Cowhe'rs 1st 5 years were no more his, than Tomlin's are his..... using your measuring stick. So Cowher was successful because of Chuck Noll?DaRKMuMMySauRuS wrote:YOU CAN CERTAINLY COMPARE THEIR DRAFTING...BUT YOU SURE AS HELL KANT COMPARE THEIR RECORDS IN TEH WIN LOSS COLUME OR ANY SUCCESS HAD....CAUSE ONE MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BOTH THEIR RECORDS IN REALITY..CANT BE DENIED..
ABSOLUTELY NOT....TEH STEELERS WERE NOWHERE NEAR TEH TEAM COWHER WAS GIVEN TAHT TOMLIN WAS GIVEN...STEELERS HAD SUX'D TEH ENTIRE DECADE BEFORE COWHER ARRIVED..NOLLS TEH GREATEST...BUT HIS DAYS WERE FINALLY OVER AFTER 23 YEARS....SURE THERE WAS SOME GOOD NAMES COWHER INHERITED....BUT IT WAS HARDLY A WINNER..OR A COMPLETE TEAM..NOR DID IT HAVE A QB....TOMLIN WAS HANDED A TURN KEY SUPER BOWL TEAM WITH TEH #1 DEFENSE AND A FRANCHISE QB AND AN EXPERIENCED TEAM THAT KNEW HOW TO WIN....COWHERS RECORD SPEEKS FOR ITSELF...HE WENT TO TEH PLAYOFFS HIS 1ST 6 YEARS IN A ROW INCLUDING A SUPER BOWL...HIS GREATNESS WAS APPARENT IMMMEDIATELY....MIKE TOMLIN HAS DONE NO SUCH THING...YOU CANNOT MAKE THSI COMPARISON..YOU SIMPLY CANT..IT IS TWO UNIQUE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS....AND COWHER DID IT TWICE PROVING IT WAS HIM AND NOT WHAT NOLL GAVE HIM...WHICH WAS NOTHING BUT SOME GOOD LINEBACKERS REALLY..WHO BY TEH WAY DIDNT BECOME GREAT TILL COWHER TOOK OVER....AS I SAI DINA PREVIOUS POST...WHOS TO SAY COWHER COULDNT HAVE MADE TEH SAME PICKS TOMLIN MADE INTO BETTER PLAYERS IF HE WAS THERE AND TOMLIN WASNT...I BELIEVE TAHT TO BE FAIRLY TRUE AS WELL....THEY ARE JUST KIDS COMING OUT OF SCHOOL WHO NEED MOLDED INTO SOMETHING...AND COWHER WAS A 1000% BETTER AT THAT THAN TOMLIN....HE TURNED LATE ROUND SHIT INTO GOLD ON A REGULAR BASIS...TOMLIN CANT EVEN DO TAHT WITH HIS #1 AND #2 PICKS....
HEY IN ALL HONESTY..I DONT HATE TEH MAN..I DO HATE HIS COACHING AND DECISIONS THOUGH..AND I DO HATE TEH FACT OF WHY HE WAS HIRED DESPITE NOONE BEING WILLING TO ADMIT IT....WE BOTH KNOW WHY HES REALLY THERE..AND IT WAS TO FILL TEH ROONEY RULE NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS..TEHER WERE MANY BETTER QUALIFIED COACHES AVAILABLE THAT DWARFED TOMLINS KNOW HOW....MIKE TOMLIN WILL NEVER COME CLOSE TO BILLC OWHER...EVER...HE IS A MOLECULE IN TEH SEA..AND BILL COWHER IS TEH SEA ITSELF....SORRY BUT TRUE...IS TOMLIN AS BAD AS I SAY?..PROBABLY NOT....BUT IT IS PERFECTLY KLEER HE IS NOT HEAD COACH MATERIAL IN ANY FASHION AND SHOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT JOB IN TEH NFL IF THATS WHERE HE WANTS TO WORK.......AND NEVER WILL BE...AND ITS KLEER HE HAS LOST HIS GRIP NOW THAT TEH FOUNDATION IS KRACKING....TAHT DID NOT HAPPEN TO BILL COWHER...HE BUILT A NEW FOUNDATION BEFORE TEH KRACKS GOT BIG....TOMLIN HASNT....TO GET THIS TEAM BACK TO ITS FORMER STATUS..ITS GONNA TAKE AT LEAST TEH NEXT 3 OR 4 DRAFTS..AND TEHY ARE ALL GONNA HAVE TO BE VERY GOOD DRAFTS...AND THEN ITS GONNA TAKE ABOTHER 3 YEARS FOR TEHM TO MATURE INTO SOMETHING...AND TAHTS A PERFECT CASE SCENARIO..WHICH ISNT GONNA HAPPEN BASED ON HIS PAST 6 DRAFTS....HE USED TEH TEAM UP HE DIDNT BUILD..AND DIDNT PUT NOTHING BACK WHILE DOING IT...ITS REALLY THAT SIMPLE...TEH ROSTER IS DEPLETED..AND ANY TALENT TAHT IS THERE IS OLD....CAUSE HE CHOSE TO RIDE IT OUT AS LONG AS HE COULD INSTEAD OF BUILDING WHILE WINNING...SEEMS HE KANT DO BOTH AT TEH SAME TIME WHILE COWHER KOULD...
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Re: Part I of: From Cowher-ites to Villagers - Comparing Drafts of Tomlin and Cowher
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