Getting value from your 6th round pick

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Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:58 am

If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.


His cap hit will be $13 Mil, $14 Mil, and $15Mil for those next 3 years.  That ranks him 17th among league QBs, and $10 Mil less than Peyton Manning's cap hit.




If (and once again, I repeat, if) the Patriots beat Buffalo in the final game, Tom Brady will become the all-time league leader among starting QBs for number of wins with one franchise, passing Brett Favre with Green Bay.




Keep going Tommy.  Three more years at least.



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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:30 pm

guppy wrote:If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.

Not really. It's only against injury. That he gets the money I mean. The figures are locked in only if he's on the team. They could still cut him and he don't get paid. Big cap hit though.


His cap hit will be $13 Mil, $14 Mil, and $15Mil for those next 3 years.  That ranks him 17th among league QBs, and $10 Mil less than Peyton Manning's cap hit.

See, here's the thing, I'm assuming you had to stick this part in to show how much more of a team man Brady is than Manning. Couple of problems with that.
There's a couple of reasons TB make less than PM.
Manning came into the league 2 years before Brady.
Manning came in making WAY more than Brady, so it's like a double head start and most importantly Mannings actually gone to free agency. Two times with the Colts and technically two times with the Broncos.
Brady always signed early. If you gamble on yourself and win you'll always get more than if you do the safe thing.
Another thing is Manning makes more money and has bigger cap hits, but in a way his contract is better for the Broncos than Bradys is for the Patriots. He got no signing bonus. he's basicly on a series of 1 year deals. He took a 10 mil loan when he signed it, no idea why maybe he wanted to buy Paige something REALLY REALLY shiny, which kinda counts as a bonus, but if something God forbid, happens to Brady tommorrow that prevents him from ever playing again it's  a 32.8 mil 2015 cap hit for the Pats. 18 mil if it happens after March 1. Or whenever the league year starts.
5 mil to the Broncos if something happens to Manning.





Keep going Tommy.  Three more years at least.


That'd be nice, but I think it's kind of a pipe dream. Then again, I never thought he'd get to this point in this contract without redoing it when he signed it so......?

Merry Christmas to ya Gup.




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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 23, 2014 7:52 pm

George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.

Not really. It's only against injury. That he gets the money I mean. The figures are locked in only if he's on the team. They could still cut him and he don't get paid. Big cap hit though.


Base salary is base salary.  You still gotta show up at work and "do your job" to get it.  Unless you're Alex Rodriquez, that is.




His cap hit will be $13 Mil, $14 Mil, and $15Mil for those next 3 years.  That ranks him 17th among league QBs, and $10 Mil less than Peyton Manning's cap hit.

See, here's the thing, I'm assuming you had to stick this part in to show how much more of a team man Brady is than Manning.


I didn't.  It reflects nothing personal regarding the players.  Its more of a comparison of how teams handle the compensation of their franchise QBs in a league with a salary cap.  One might be getting a better "bargain" than the other, and that reflects on their business acumen.   Brady and Manning will forever be compared, by both media and fans, for things both on and off the field.  Like Bird and Magic, you can't talk about one without talking about the other.  Its just the way it is. 

I like Manning.  He's a solid a person as they come.  I appreciate the level of competition he brings.  A win over him and his team is more sweet, a loss more painful.  Greater emotion in the games he's involved in is what you want as a fan.  When the rivalry is over, we'll all miss it because when its all gone then we'll know even better how special it was. 


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Now, having said that, what's up with 15 interceptions this year?  15!  Who does he think he is, Eli?  TB never had 15 picks in a year, ever.  Smile   Kidding aside, I think there may be something physical going on there (injury) throwing him off his usual self. 





Keep going Tommy.  Three more years at least.


That'd be nice, but I think it's kind of a pipe dream. Then again, I never thought he'd get to this point in this contract without redoing it when he signed it so......?

His secret to longevity is meditation and going to bed at 8:30 PM. Sleep


Merry Christmas to ya Gup.


Merry Christmas to you and yours George. santa








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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:14 pm

Little interesting related thing, if Vince Wilfork plays on sunday, and I mean all day, he hits a 1.25 mill bonus.
Conventional wisdom would be to have him in for the first series then hide his helmet.
Lotta money though.
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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:14 pm

George1963 wrote:Little interesting related thing, if Vince Wilfork plays on sunday, and I mean all day, he hits a 1.25 mill bonus.
Conventional wisdom would be to have him in for the first series then hide his helmet.
Lotta money though.


Question.  Lets say he doesn't get the number of snaps in order for his bonus to kick in.  Would Kraft pay it to him anyway considering how he already redid his contract and was not really happy about doing it?

Not being an NFL owner myself, I don't have to worry about making such decisions.
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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:42 am

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Little interesting related thing, if Vince Wilfork plays on sunday, and I mean all day, he hits a 1.25 mill bonus.
Conventional wisdom would be to have him in for the first series then hide his helmet.
Lotta money though.


Question.  Lets say he doesn't get the number of snaps in order for his bonus to kick in.  Would Kraft pay it to him anyway considering how he already redid his contract and was not really happy about doing it?

If he did he better set aside another $500k and a first round pick. Giving somebody money that's not in their contract might be a minor salary cap violation. He wouldn't do it even if he could. It would set a terrible precedent. Unless guys started turning down bonuses if they barely made them.
I think I misread the thing about Wilfork too. I guess he only has to play about 20 plays to get the money. They do have to be a top 10 scoring D though. Several guys have bonuses for that. They're currently 8th, 17 points ahead of 10th so, that might be a thing.



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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:08 pm

George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Little interesting related thing, if Vince Wilfork plays on sunday, and I mean all day, he hits a 1.25 mill bonus.
Conventional wisdom would be to have him in for the first series then hide his helmet.
Lotta money though.


Question.  Lets say he doesn't get the number of snaps in order for his bonus to kick in.  Would Kraft pay it to him anyway considering how he already redid his contract and was not really happy about doing it?

If he did he better set aside another $500k and a first round pick. Giving somebody money that's not in their contract might be a minor salary cap violation. He wouldn't do it even if he could. It would set a terrible precedent. Unless guys started turning down bonuses if they barely made them.
I think I misread the thing about Wilfork too. I guess he only has to play about 20 plays to get the money. They do have to be a top 10 scoring D though. Several guys have bonuses for that. They're currently 8th, 17 points ahead of 10th so, that might be a thing.



Yes, it would be a bad precedent.  But why do they structure contracts this way in the first place?  I think it puts the head coach -- who is himself a salaried employee of the owner --- in a terrible position, even a conflict of interest.  Does he sit the player because he wants to keep him as healthy as possible for the playoffs, ie, do "what's in the best interest of the team", ie, the best interests of the team on the field?  Or does he do what the owner might want, and that is to save him money and protect the bottom line, which is a totally different notion of "in the best interests of the team"?   Why should a head coach be forced to walk that fine line, where he's damned if he does, and he's damned if he doesn't.......depending on whose ox is being gored? (my famous Biblical reference from the past, which I love to use every now and then).



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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:18 pm

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:Little interesting related thing, if Vince Wilfork plays on sunday, and I mean all day, he hits a 1.25 mill bonus.
Conventional wisdom would be to have him in for the first series then hide his helmet.
Lotta money though.


Question.  Lets say he doesn't get the number of snaps in order for his bonus to kick in.  Would Kraft pay it to him anyway considering how he already redid his contract and was not really happy about doing it?

If he did he better set aside another $500k and a first round pick. Giving somebody money that's not in their contract might be a minor salary cap violation. He wouldn't do it even if he could. It would set a terrible precedent. Unless guys started turning down bonuses if they barely made them.
I think I misread the thing about Wilfork too. I guess he only has to play about 20 plays to get the money. They do have to be a top 10 scoring D though. Several guys have bonuses for that. They're currently 8th, 17 points ahead of 10th so, that might be a thing.



Yes, it would be a bad precedent.  But why do they structure contracts this way in the first place?  I think it puts the head coach -- who is himself a salaried employee of the owner --- in a terrible position, even a conflict of interest.  Does he sit the player because he wants to keep him as healthy as possible for the playoffs, ie, do "what's in the best interest of the team", ie, the best interests of the team on the field?  Or does he do what the owner might want, and that is to save him money and protect the bottom line, which is a totally different notion of "in the best interests of the team"?   Why should a head coach be forced to walk that fine line, where he's damned if he does, and he's damned if he doesn't.......depending on whose ox is being gored? (my famous Biblical reference from the past, which I love to use every now and then).

 Revis has a participation bonus for every game this year. Except for this week. Smart fella. Or smart agent. The teams probably hate him.


I think it puts the head coach -- who is himself a salaried employee of the owner --- in a terrible position, even a conflict of interest.  Does he sit the player because he wants to keep him as healthy as possible for the playoffs, ie, do "what's in the best interest of the team", ie, the best interests of the team on the field?  Or does he do what the owner might want, and that is to save him money and protect the bottom line, which is a totally different notion of "in the best interests of the team"?

It's in his best interest as well. In most cases bonus money this year hits the cap next year. BB would certainly try to avoid that if he could. As long as everybody knows what the deal is, it is what it is.
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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:10 pm

George1963 wrote:
As long as everybody knows what the deal is, it is what it is.

No question Vince knows what the deal isBut if he gets sit down as a result of a "coach's decision" when he obviously wants to be on the field and qualify for his bonus, he's going to hit the roof.  I hope it works out and there's no tension and he gets his money.  But more importantly than that, the most important stat of the day in a meaningless game will be:  Injuries: 0.

Looking forward to seeing a lot of Jimmy Garoppolo, and what he can do.





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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:10 pm

George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.

Not really. It's only against injury. That he gets the money I mean. The figures are locked in only if he's on the team. They could still cut him and he don't get paid. Big cap hit though.



Date:  12/29/2014, cut and paste the following:




"You know Tom, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any cooler, you go and do something like this.

AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!



It would appear that Tommy B has once again opted to restructure his contract in order to free up roughly $24 million in cap space for the Patriots to use this winter. Under the new deal, Brady's guarantee has changed from the "skill" variety to the "injury" variety, which means that Brady is only guaranteed money if he gets injured and is unable to play. The Patriots also now have the ability to release Tommy B (stop it, Alec. Just stop it) with zero liability, making him an unrestricted free agent who can command the guaranteed money he agreed to surrender elsewhere. It's a gamble for the Patriots in that they are on the hook for a lot of money if Brady goes down, but seeing as he takes care of himself so meticulously that he has his fitness and diet plans scheduled out for the next four years, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet.

The move also frees up some much needed money that New England can use on its own free agents, not the least of which are Shane Vereen, Devin McCourty, and Darrelle Revis. Interesting that this news comes on the same day Woody Johnson made it known that he'd very, very much like to have Revis back.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go add another page to my court approved I Love Tom Brady scrapbook."


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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:37 am

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.

Not really. It's only against injury. That he gets the money I mean. The figures are locked in only if he's on the team. They could still cut him and he don't get paid. Big cap hit though.



Date:  12/29/2014, cut and paste the following:




"You know Tom, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any cooler, you go and do something like this.

AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!



It would appear that Tommy B has once again opted to restructure his contract in order to free up roughly $24 million in cap space for the Patriots to use this winter.

It doesn't free up any cap
space. As a matter of fact it raises his cap # by a mil a year.
The Patriots would have been required to put 24 mil in escrow. to cover his guarantee. By removing the skill guarantee they don't have to.
The move kept that money in Krafts pocket, and Brady gets an extra million a year for his "trouble".
As it has been every time Tommy has "taken one for the team" he gets more money.


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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:04 am

George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.

Not really. It's only against injury. That he gets the money I mean. The figures are locked in only if he's on the team. They could still cut him and he don't get paid. Big cap hit though.



Date:  12/29/2014, cut and paste the following:




"You know Tom, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any cooler, you go and do something like this.

AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!



It would appear that Tommy B has once again opted to restructure his contract in order to free up roughly $24 million in cap space for the Patriots to use this winter.

It doesn't free up any cap
space. As a matter of fact it raises his cap # by a mil a year.
The Patriots would have been required to put 24 mil in escrow. to cover his guarantee. By removing the skill guarantee they don't have to.
The move kept that money in Krafts pocket, and Brady gets an extra million a year for his "trouble".
As it has been every time Tommy has "taken one for the team" he gets more money.


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The move frees up cash for the Patriots to use on other players. New England needs the cash to help re-sign some of its own free agents, including cornerback Darrelle Revis, safety Devin McCourty, tackle Nate Solder and running back Shane Vereen.




Also, this was done on 12/29.  You said above "Its only against injury" several days before it happened.  Were you wrong (or premature) when you said it?

To say the move keeps the money "in Kraft's pocket" paints an unfair characterization.  I'm sure he's not planning on keeping the cash "in his pocket".   Do you think Robert said to Tom, "Thanks for the $24 Mil Tom.  You're like a son to me.  When I buy my new retreat in Hawaii with it, I'll be sure to invite you and Giselle"? 

How long before we hear at a press conference, "We are pleased to announce that Darrelle Revis will remain a Patriot for the foreseeable future?"  Woohoo.




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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:14 am

George1963 wrote:

As it has been every time Tommy has "taken one for the team" he gets more money.


So he "takes one for the team" AND he gets more money too?

One word comes to mind.

Brilliant.



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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:07 pm

guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:
George1963 wrote:
guppy wrote:If (I repeat, if) Tom Brady makes the roster for NE's final game vs. Buffalo, Wink , due to his contract structure, he will be guaranteed $24 Mil in base salary for the next 3 seasons, 2015-2017.

Not really. It's only against injury. That he gets the money I mean. The figures are locked in only if he's on the team. They could still cut him and he don't get paid. Big cap hit though.



Date:  12/29/2014, cut and paste the following:




"You know Tom, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any cooler, you go and do something like this.

AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!



It would appear that Tommy B has once again opted to restructure his contract in order to free up roughly $24 million in cap space for the Patriots to use this winter.

It doesn't free up any cap
space. As a matter of fact it raises his cap # by a mil a year.
The Patriots would have been required to put 24 mil in escrow. to cover his guarantee. By removing the skill guarantee they don't have to.
The move kept that money in Krafts pocket, and Brady gets an extra million a year for his "trouble".
As it has been every time Tommy has "taken one for the team" he gets more money.


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The move frees up cash for the Patriots to use on other players. New England needs the cash to help re-sign some of its own free agents, including cornerback Darrelle Revis, safety Devin McCourty, tackle Nate Solder and running back Shane Vereen.




Also, this was done on 12/29.  You said above "Its only against injury" several days before it happened.  Were you wrong (or premature) when you said it?

Wrong, sorta, but not really. Guys have had this "skill erosion" guarantee before. I didn't know that Brady had it, but it's just as meaningless for him as it has been for everybody else. They can't cut you if your skills erode. Well, they can, but they still have to pay you. And take the cap hit. But overriding that is the fact that written into every contract, among six other reasons they can tear up your deal, is that they can terminate the contract if in the opinion of the team they have another player under contract making less money who can do your job as well or better.
The opinion of the team takes most if not all argument out of it, it doesn't have to be true, just their opinion, and it takes skill erosion out of it as well. You might have gotten better. As long as the team contends they have somebody just as good for less money, you're gone.
This was the box they checked when they cut Lawyer Milloy and Ty Law. I could name many others, but figured I'd give you an examples you'd remember.


To say the move keeps the money "in Kraft's pocket" paints an unfair characterization.  I'm sure he's not planning on keeping the cash "in his pocket".   Do you think Robert said to Tom, "Thanks for the $24 Mil Tom.  You're like a son to me.  When I buy my new retreat in Hawaii with it, I'll be sure to invite you and Giselle"?

He would have had to write a $24 mil check to the league office on monday morning. He didn't. What he does with it is anybodys guess. 

How long before we hear at a press conference, "We are pleased to announce that Darrelle Revis will remain a Patriot for the foreseeable future?"  Woohoo.

After the start of the league year. After they don't pick up his option, he hits free agency, then resigns with the Pats at 70 cents on the dollar somebody else will probably offer him.
He might. But that would be utterly out of character for him, and the Pats might pay him what he wants, or hell even pick up that huge option, but that would be totally out of character for them.
And I don't think there's anyway they can redo it before the option is due. Has to due with dates and even BB isn't powerful enough to change the calender.
I don't think.
Dude would look good with a horseshoe on his head IMO






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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:49 pm

George1963 wrote:


It doesn't free up any cap
space. As a matter of fact it raises his cap # by a mil a year.

Oh, but he article on nfl.com contains the following sentence which I cut and pasted:  "
It does not impact the Patriots' salary cap situation."



He would have had to write a $24 mil check to the league office on monday morning. He didn't. What he does with it is anybodys guess.

What's yours? 



Dude would look good with a horseshoe on his head IMO


Have you been hanging out with Jets owner Woody Johnson, you Tamperer, you? 

I think $500,000 and a first round pick sounds about right for appropriate punishment for tampering.  There's a nice symmetry to those figures, don't you think?

Seriously though, I think what Woody said amounts to jaywalking.  Did it really give Revis - a player under contract - leverage to raise his price for his next contract because he's "wanted" by another team?  I hardly think so.  Give Woody a slap on the wrist.  Or let it go.  Whatever.  On the other hand, as I think about it, he's a billionaire owner, and the player is under contact with another team.  He should know better.  Just a poor choice of words.  But so were these words of a former United States President, "I'm not a crook."  LOL.





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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:02 pm

He would have had to write a $24 mil check to the league office on monday morning. He didn't. What he does with it is anybodys guess.

What's yours? 



If I had to, I'd say it'd be spread around among the little people. Four here, five there. Not the whole thing on one cornerback. Because that's what it would take.
Take a look at Patrick Petersons deal, keep in mind that it was an extension, not a true free agent deal, and go from there.



Dude would look good with a horseshoe on his head IMO

Have you been hanging out with Jets owner Woody Johnson, you Tamperer, you? 

I think $500,000 and a first round pick sounds about right for appropriate punishment for tampering.  There's a nice symmetry to those figures, don't you think?



I'm a Packer owner. I never mentioned them, or any NFL team for that matter.

"Horseshoe on his head" could mean a lot of things.
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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by George1963 on Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:04 pm

It doesn't free up any cap space. As a matter of fact it raises his cap # by a mil a year.

Oh, but he article on nfl.com contains the following sentence which I cut and pasted:  "
It does not impact the Patriots' salary cap situation."


The very first thing you posted on the benificant Tom Brady move, which was what I responded to, was this;



Date:  12/29/2014, cut and paste the following:




"You know Tom, just when I think you couldn't possibly be any cooler, you go and do something like this.

AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!



It would appear that Tommy B has once again opted to restructure his contract in order to free up roughly $24 million in cap space for the Patriots to use this winter


Now if you take adding a million to Brady's cap number to be the same thing as "free up roughly $24 million in cap space" God love you. You should work for the government.
Cap number, salary, guaranteed money, average annual value, they're all different things.
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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:07 pm

George1963 wrote:
It would appear that Tommy B has once again opted to restructure his contract in order to free up roughly $24 million in cap space for the Patriots to use this winter


Now if you take adding a million to Brady's cap number to be the same thing as "free up roughly $24 million in cap space" God love you. You should work for the government.
Cap number, salary, guaranteed money, average annual value, they're all different things.


OK, here's what happened.  I cut and pasted the above sentence including the words "free up roughly $24 million in cap space".  I did not type them.  Obviously, the author of the article from which I took it made the mistake.  He should have said $24 in cash, not "cap space".  So it was his mistake.   I didn't realize at the time.  But obviously by you responding to it, neither did you.  We were both misled.

A little contract restructure by employer and employee, and voila: 1) Brady makes more money, and 2) Kraft doesn't have to deposit $24 Mil with the league and gets to keep those funds liquid. 

Maybe it is they who should run the government.

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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

Post by guppy on Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:18 pm

George1963 wrote:
Dude would look good with a horseshoe on his head IMO

Have you been hanging out with Jets owner Woody Johnson, you Tamperer, you? 

I think $500,000 and a first round pick sounds about right for appropriate punishment for tampering.  There's a nice symmetry to those figures, don't you think?



I'm a Packer owner. I never mentioned them, or any NFL team for that matter.

"Horseshoe on his head" could mean a lot of things.


OK counselor.  Case dismissed.
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guppy
1st Round Pick
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Re: Getting value from your 6th round pick

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